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Old 03-18-2012, 06:33 PM
 
3,129 posts, read 5,308,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Whose problem is that? If he was good enough to start when he entered the league, he would have. This season is still a 66 game season, so that's not much time lost. Jordan missed the entire 86 season practically. He also missed most of the 95 season. That easily negates the 'strike' seasons that Kobe has played through.

Let's make this simple: remove Kobe's first 3 seasons, because he came off the bench for the first 2 years and the 3rd was a lockout year. Let's hypothetically 'start' his career in 1999-2000, when he starting putting up big numbers. Now let's remove Jordan's last 2 seasons with the Wizards. Guess what, Jordan's numbers and accomplishments still outpace Kobe's when you only look at their 'prime' years.

And again, don't want to hear the 'he played with Shaq' excuse. Kobe's post-Shaq averages are basically the same as what he was doing WITH Shaq once he got the playing time. Kobe has a 28.5 year, and a 30.0 year, WITH Shaq. Only twice has he exceeded that 30.0 once Shaq left, in 2006 at 35ppg and 2007 at 31ppg with an offensively challenged Lakers squad. Nothing since 2005 has stopped him from putting up the kind of numbers Jordan put up in his prime. Call me when Kobe averages 32,8,8 on over 50% shooting in a season. Kobe's never sniffed a 50% shooting season. Kobe has three 30ppg seasons in 16 seasons, Jordan had eight in 15 seasons, and his lowest shooting percentage in any of those seasons was 48%, which was the year he averaged 37.1.

Kobe's one hell of a player, top 10 all-time, but he's not Jordan. Don't kid yourself otherwise.
I never said he was a Jordan Jordan is simply the best ever, period. I just don't think people understand how good Kobe is and he's the closest to Jordan we might see for sometime. He also is superior to MJ in some aspects.

But there is no doubt Jordan is the better player.
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Old 03-18-2012, 07:39 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Originally Posted by RandyWatson13 View Post
I never said he was a Jordan Jordan is simply the best ever, period. I just don't think people understand how good Kobe is and he's the closest to Jordan we might see for sometime. He also is superior to MJ in some aspects.

But there is no doubt Jordan is the better player.
Of course he's superior to Jordan in some aspects. Jordan wasn't the best in every facet of the game. Lots of players are superior to Jordan in one aspect or another.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:30 PM
 
Location: BMORE!
7,742 posts, read 6,144,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
If you replaced Magic with Kobe, then your question would be applicable. Magic Johnson was one of the most unselfish superstars in Basketball, why exactly would there be a power struggle?

Let's reiterate: we're talking about an 'all-time team' here. If I pick Jordan at the 2 guard spot, then I'd pick Magic at the point. Why would I pick Kobe Bryant for that spot? Not only is he not a point guard, but pick him over arguably the greatest passer/playmaker the game has ever seen???!!!
1. Because Magic was a facilitator, which means the offense would run through him.

2. Jordan is also a facilitator mean and at key moments of the game he is the offense.

With magic, it's, "I run the offense, everyone get into postion."
With Jordan, it's "give me the ball and get the **** outta the way."

That's not going to work.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:37 PM
 
Location: BMORE!
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Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Of course he's superior to Jordan in some aspects. Jordan wasn't the best in every facet of the game. Lots of players are superior to Jordan in one aspect or another.
Jordan is at, or near the top in all aspects and that's what makes him the Greatest of All Time.
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:00 AM
 
Location: The "Rock"
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Originally Posted by KodeBlue View Post
With Jordan, it's "give me the ball and get the **** outta the way."
You obviously did not watch Jordan play because this is so not true...

Ask the Lakers, Suns, & Jazz. All of whom saw Jordan defer to Paxton & Kerr in critical moments in the Finals. And against the Blazers in the Finals he spent almost the whole 4th quarter in a the clinching game on the bench cheering his team on because he was playing terrible.

Jordan played within the offense.

Yea he played like your description in his early years but that was because he wasnt surrounded by any talent whatsoever. Once the talent came and Phil came on broad, Jordan became a facilitator as well. Not a point guard facilitator but a shooting guard facilitator.

He would have no problem playing with Magic. None whatsoever...
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Old 03-19-2012, 06:20 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,879,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KodeBlue View Post
1. Because Magic was a facilitator, which means the offense would run through him.

2. Jordan is also a facilitator mean and at key moments of the game he is the offense.

With magic, it's, "I run the offense, everyone get into postion."
With Jordan, it's "give me the ball and get the **** outta the way."

That's not going to work.
Yes, Magic is a facilitator. That's precisely why you'd pick him. Jordan is, first and foremost, a scorer. One of the most prolific of all-time. The fact that you'd call Jordan one, makes me wonder if you're entirely sure what the term means, in Basketball lingo. Could Jordan facilitate in situations? Sure, but he's not a facilitator by nature, he's a scorer. And he's more than capable of playing off the ball, which is precisely what would happen in this scenario, as he was playing largely off the ball with Pippen directing the triangle on those Bulls teams

Let's apply some basic logic here: Jordan and Kobe are both cut from the same cloth. They're both alpha scorers. Who's going to defer to who in this situation? Why on god's green earth would you pair the two of them together? Magic and Jordan are a FAR better match, basketball wise, as they aren't redundant players and Magic's skillset is ideal for playing with a team of stars( which is what an all-time team would be). There is just no logical reason, in a basketball sense, why you'd pair Jordan and Kobe over Jordan and Magic on an 'all-time' team, or that you'd pick anyone aside from Magic to direct a team of other stars.



Quote:
Originally Posted by KodeBlue View Post
Jordan is at, or near the top in all aspects and that's what makes him the Greatest of All Time.
I never said otherwise. He's not the best at everything, which is my point. There's a number of players who are better shooters, ball-handlers, rebounders, passers at the perimeter position. Jordan was a perfect blend of skill, talent, athleticism, IQ, heart, grit, and competitiveness. It's not because he was 'the best' at everything that makes people consider him the GOAT.
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Old 03-19-2012, 06:27 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Originally Posted by Mr. GE View Post

He would have no problem playing with Magic. None whatsoever...
Exactly. I can't believe this is even a debate.
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Old 03-19-2012, 07:34 AM
 
51,934 posts, read 41,798,494 times
Reputation: 32402
Quote:
Originally Posted by KodeBlue View Post
1. Because Magic was a facilitator, which means the offense would run through him.

2. Jordan is also a facilitator mean and at key moments of the game he is the offense.

With magic, it's, "I run the offense, everyone get into postion."
With Jordan, it's "give me the ball and get the **** outta the way."

That's not going to work.
Michael Jordan NBA & ABA Statistics | Basketball-Reference.com

I think that with Jordan's prime years now being roughly 20 years ago it's easy for many of us, even those of us that have watched him hundreds of times to forget.

Age 25: 22 shots per game. 8 rebs. 8 assists. 33pts. 54% FG.

Kobe is taking 24 shots a game this year making 46% and then there are about 6 guys clustered around 19 shots a game. He was only rarely shot over 46% and his max asssists is 6 per game. He shoots about 3 more 3-pt shots a game than Jordan did.

It's really hard to compare their games because Jordan was a much stronger finisher and attacked the hoop in his prime.
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Old 03-19-2012, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,879,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post

He was only rarely shot over 46%
Minor correction: he's never shot over 46%.
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Old 03-19-2012, 07:42 AM
 
3,129 posts, read 5,308,960 times
Reputation: 1588
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. GE View Post
You obviously did not watch Jordan play because this is so not true...

Ask the Lakers, Suns, & Jazz. All of whom saw Jordan defer to Paxton & Kerr in critical moments in the Finals. And against the Blazers in the Finals he spent almost the whole 4th quarter in a the clinching game on the bench cheering his team on because he was playing terrible.

Jordan played within the offense.

Yea he played like your description in his early years but that was because he wasnt surrounded by any talent whatsoever. Once the talent came and Phil came on broad, Jordan became a facilitator as well. Not a point guard facilitator but a shooting guard facilitator.

He would have no problem playing with Magic. None whatsoever...
Very Very true...also when Doug Collins experimented and started Jordan as the PG, he averaged a triple double in 10 or so games....he stopped it b/c it was making Jordan too tired to run the offense the entire game.

Jordan and Kobe averaged between 5-8 assists most seasons, this is pretty amazing for shooting guards that shoot 20 times a game and are relied on to score.
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