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Old 03-04-2012, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
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Perhaps so, they had problems with the Jazz both times. A friend of mine still swears that Jordan got away with a push off against (IIRC) Bryon Russell with his buzzer-beater in 1998


1998: Jordan's Last Shot - YouTube
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Old 03-04-2012, 07:21 PM
FBJ
 
Location: Tall Building down by the river
39,615 posts, read 50,329,545 times
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Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
Perhaps so, they had problems with the Jazz both times. A friend of mine still swears that Jordan got away with a push off against (IIRC) Bryon Russell with his buzzer-beater in 1998


1998: Jordan's Last Shot - YouTube
i remember the Jazz being up by like 4 or 5 and made dumb shot selections and jordan stole the ball
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:58 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
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Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Except they did just that. From 1991 to 1998, the Bulls won every year that Michael Jordan started the season. The Rockets managed to break through during the years Jordan was retired or played half a season. I'll play Devil's advocate alongside you and say in retrospect I don't think they'd have beaten the 1995 Rockets, not without Grant in the lineup and Rodman hadn't joined yet. I do think they'd have gotten past the Rockets in 1994. In fact, that 1994 Bulls team could have been absolutely stellar: a still in his prime Jordan, a rookie Kukoc, Grant and Pippen in their primes, B.J Armstrong developing into an excellent backcourt mate for M.J, and the majority of bench players from the prior seasons.
The Bulls had an excellent team. I don't doubt that. The problem with this idea of "8".....after 5 or 6 titles, a lot can go wrong.

-Either chemistry problems. Injuries.

Remember Pippen's little tantrum, when he took himself out of a playoff game with 1.8 seconds left. That could have happened more. Or look at the Kobe and Shaq dynamic. If they had been intact for 10 years, I don't think they necessarily would have won 8 titles.

-I think the egos were smaller and paychecks were smaller in the 50's and 60's....thus the celtics could keep their core dynamic for so long, and dominate everyone. Bill Russell wasn't asking for a trillion dollars after winning 6 titles.

In todays game the media coverage and paychecks can create a lot of friction (i.e. Miami Heat??). I don't know if that core bulls group (and the coaching) and ownership expectations could have all stayed on the same page for so long.

Could Armstrong and Kukoc have survived the Knicks for a couple of years in the playoffs? Mason, Oakley, Charles Smith, Doc Rivers?? That's a lot of bodies. Even when they had Jordan, the knicks could take them to 7 games.
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Old 03-05-2012, 04:20 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,881,684 times
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Originally Posted by John23 View Post
The Bulls had an excellent team. I don't doubt that. The problem with this idea of "8".....after 5 or 6 titles, a lot can go wrong.

-Either chemistry problems. Injuries.

Remember Pippen's little tantrum, when he took himself out of a playoff game with 1.8 seconds left. That could have happened more. Or look at the Kobe and Shaq dynamic. If they had been intact for 10 years, I don't think they necessarily would have won 8 titles.

-I think the egos were smaller and paychecks were smaller in the 50's and 60's....thus the celtics could keep their core dynamic for so long, and dominate everyone. Bill Russell wasn't asking for a trillion dollars after winning 6 titles.

In todays game the media coverage and paychecks can create a lot of friction (i.e. Miami Heat??). I don't know if that core bulls group (and the coaching) and ownership expectations could have all stayed on the same page for so long.

Could Armstrong and Kukoc have survived the Knicks for a couple of years in the playoffs? Mason, Oakley, Charles Smith, Doc Rivers?? That's a lot of bodies. Even when they had Jordan, the knicks could take them to 7 games.
I quite clearly stated that I don't believe the Bulls would have won 8 straight. I do think they were capable of winning the 94 title, but not the 95 title because of a thin backcourt( no Grant or Rodman).
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:03 AM
 
Location: The "Rock"
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Originally Posted by John23 View Post
Could Armstrong and Kukoc have survived the Knicks for a couple of years in the playoffs? Mason, Oakley, Charles Smith, Doc Rivers?? That's a lot of bodies. Even when they had Jordan, the knicks could take them to 7 games.
I think this speaks to Jordan and those Bulls teams's greatness... They not only beat extremely talented teams but they were also clutch beating them late in series. And they never let a less talented team hang around, they knew how to close out.

I think their toughest series ever was the '92 series in the 2nd around against the Knicks... that was an epic battle. I still get chills seeing Jordan and X-Man talking trash head to head.
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:25 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
I do think they were capable of winning the 94 title, but not the 95 title because of a thin backcourt( no Grant or Rodman).
Sorry, that should say thin FRONTcourt....
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Cook County
5,288 posts, read 6,366,040 times
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Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Sorry, that should say thin FRONTcourt....
Too late, you made a typo for all of the interwebs to see! Credibility, shot!

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Old 03-05-2012, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Originally Posted by Orangeish View Post
Too late, you made a typo for all of the interwebs to see! Credibility, shot!


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Old 03-05-2012, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Ro cha cha, NY
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Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
I quite clearly stated that I don't believe the Bulls would have won 8 straight. I do think they were capable of winning the 94 title, but not the 95 title because of a thin backcourt( no Grant or Rodman).

I agree with alot of things you say, but I disagree here. I think Jordan would have won two more inbetween those retiremtent years. Jordan was at his peak level. And you can't assume, they wouldn't have re-upped some players and sent a few packing..Jordan was the ultimate competitor. He played hard EVERY SINGLE GAME no matter the importance. He played defense consistency. Not a couple of seasons, but every year that he was in the league. He won games with defense when he needed to. Ala, the Jazz series years ago..Stripping the ball. Then taking it down the court to do what? Juke Russell and shoot a chip shot. I'm sorry. I wanted to stay (assumptious) regarding this. Because clearly none of us will ever know, because Jordan can't go back in time and screw up what might have been an unchallenged goal.

Imagine if he had stayed and won those two titles??? Eight straight? Who and what program (besides college bball UCLA in those few team N. Championship tournaments) would replicate that?

I think many people overhype Hakeem. He was never better than Jordan. If he was so good at that time, why didn't he win when Jordan came back? I just don't buy a younger Jordan still in his prime would have lost too anybody. During those eight-nine year run. For almost ten years (he had a seriously bad team when he entered the league) he dominated basketball. What other player comes close to his numbers for the amount he played? Shag was great for three years. Kobe about five with a big like Shaq for three who was the more dominant one through those championships. Lebron, as great as he is hasn't won anything yet. He's been in the league nine years. I dunno, I think people forget how competititive he was. The longer he is away from the league, the easier it is for people to start assuming he was like other lesser great players. We see decline in everyone eventually and when it hits it hits hard. There was never a question during those Bulls championship runs where it was ever a question, wheather someone was ever better than Jordan. When he was in his prime. That answer never came up for over a decade. And for good reason!!..It wasn't even a debate/questionable.

When you look at the game in the last decade, when Jordan hasn't played. As much as we love Kobe at times. (Cough-he mimicked MJ's game for all it's worth). Wade is great at times, Dirk, Lebron, there was some Tim Duncan in there, as well as Shaq some years back, and on and on and on. Every year, it's questionable at times to who's the best player in the league and we have had some very good players in the league (thanks to other factors). Who will most likely shatter the overall scoring record, and many other records simply because of their several more years of playing time. But name one player you can definitively say is the best player right now? Was yesterday? And will be tomorrow? I'm talking years not days. Who can you say that about?

Last edited by supermanpansy; 03-05-2012 at 12:24 PM..
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Old 03-05-2012, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Originally Posted by supermanpansy View Post
I agree with alot of things you say, but I disagree here. I think Jordan would have won two more inbetween those retiremtent years.
Jordan has gone on record as saying he was mentally burnt out at the end of the 3rd title in 1993, and that retirement was an option. This was before his father was tragically killed. So, while it's entirely possible that the Bulls may have won in 1994, with an improved Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, and rookie Kukoc, the reality is that Michael Jordan was mentally burnt out at the end of the 1993 season.

We can 'presume' that the Bulls would have replaced Grant with some other capable power forward, or we can go with the reality that Grant's departure left a big front-court hole, one that Kukoc was not-equipped to fill( let me be clear, Kukoc was a fine talent, but he was not a power forward capable of doing the defensive dirty work that made Grant so valuable), and that this hole would not be filled until Rodman came on-board. That reality, moreso than whether or not Jordan would have been mentally up to the challenge, would have been a huge stumbling block for the Bulls to win the 95 title. That's not to forget that the NBA regular season is a grind, 82 games plus playoffs. For a team that was playing a 100 plus games every year during its championship run, it's one hell of a task to assume they'd have won 8 straight titles. There's a reason that's only been done once, and that team( the 60's Celtics) was fortunate to have 7 or so hall of famers on it.
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