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Old 03-05-2012, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Ro cha cha, NY
3,085 posts, read 4,220,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Jordan has gone on record as saying he was mentally burnt out at the end of the 3rd title in 1993, and that retirement was an option. This was before his father was tragically killed. So, while it's entirely possible that the Bulls may have won in 1994, with an improved Pippen, Grant, Armstrong, and rookie Kukoc, the reality is that Michael Jordan was mentally burnt out at the end of the 1993 season.

We can 'presume' that the Bulls would have replaced Grant with some other capable power forward, or we can go with the reality that Grant's departure left a big front-court hole, one that Kukoc was not-equipped to fill( let me be clear, Kukoc was a fine talent, but he was not a power forward capable of doing the defensive dirty work that made Grant so valuable), and that this hole would not be filled until Rodman came on-board. That reality, moreso than whether or not Jordan would have been mentally up to the challenge, would have been a huge stumbling block for the Bulls to win the 95 title. That's not to forget that the NBA regular season is a grind, 82 games plus playoffs. For a team that was playing a 100 plus games every year during its championship run, it's one hell of a task to assume they'd have won 8 straight titles. There's a reason that's only been done once, and that team( the 60's Celtics) was fortunate to have 7 or so hall of famers on it.

Exactly. And all the things you say apply to all players, except for MJ. I don't care what MJ said. He was mentally worn out. He had the offseason to relax. If he really wanted to, he could have. He was just too freaking competitive. He might not have had a seventy two game season, but he would have won two more. All it would have taken is a few doubtors, such as yourself to speak of him as if he were any other player but himself. To stress that he was too burnt to handle it and that he was too tired. If he had to at any time hear that, he would have switched gears and found motivation again. Plus, let's be honest. His father dieing impacted him profoundly. He stopped loving the game-because he stopped loving life. His father was so very important to him. Losing someone that close/changes people. If he did stay and lost, his father being killed would have been the biggest reason if any that he would not have acheived that. His will to win was no longer there when his father died. I didn't make myself clear. I guess I should have spoken about this aspect of it. This is all assuming his father had never been killed. I think he could have easily won those other two titles. However, when you factor in his father's death-that alone would have mentally made him not ready. Not him being normal mentally tired. I understand the argument about being tired. Having played so many more games every year. You do raise some good points. I figured this on my own years ago, but then it goes back to my main point. We are not talking about normal players. We are talking about MJ. MJ wasn't normal by any stretch. He could have gotten over "player fatigue" in time. He would have gotten back into winning shape. Not father being killed mentally. He wasn't ready for that challenge. Maybe that's why he walked away. He was so egotistical, he didn't want others to see him "not at his best". His father getting killed was the ***** in his armor..When your someone in his position. Most likely you trust very few people. He lost his most trusted confidant. He lost his best friend too. His father was everything to him.

Last edited by supermanpansy; 03-05-2012 at 01:05 PM..
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,887,254 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supermanpansy View Post
Exactly. And all the things you say apply to all players, except for MJ. I don't care what MJ said. He was mentally worn out. He had the offseason to relax. If he really wanted to, he could have. He was just too freaking competitive. He might not have had a seventy two game season, but he would have won two more. All it would have taken is a few doubtors, such as yourself to speak of him as if he were any other player but himself. To stress that he was to burnt to handle it and that he was to tired. If he had to at any time hear that, he would have switched gears and found motivation again. Plus, let's be honest. His father dieing impacted him profoundly. He stopped loving the game-because he stopped loving life. His father was so very important to him. Losing someone that close/changes people. If he did stay and lost, his father being killed would have been the biggest reason if any that he would not have acheived that. His will to win was no longer there when his father died. I didn't make myself clear. This is assuming his father never died. I think he could have easily won those other two titles. However, when you factor in his father's death-that alone would have mentally made him not ready. Not him being normal mentally tired. I understand the argument about being tired. Having played so many more games every year. You do raise some good points. I figured this on my own years ago, but then it goes back to my main point. We are not talking about normal players. We are talking about MJ. MJ wasn't normal by any stretch. He could have gotten over "player fatigue" in time. He would have gotten back into winning shape. Not father being killed mentally. He wasn't ready for that challenge. Maybe that's why he walked away. He was so egotistical, he didn't want others to see him "not at his best".

If Jordan himself said this, I don't see how anyone could turn around and refute that. The words came from the man himself, and surely he knows his physical and mental readiness more than the rest of us? I'm not in position to link a video, but the guy admits that he contemplated retirement after the 93 title. The fact that his father died basically was the icing on the cake, but he already had thoughts of retirement prior. Now, for a 30 year old in his physical prime to be of that mentality, that must be some serious fatigue going on. Remember, we're also talking about a guy who played in the Olympics in 92( so much for summer rest) and whose private life was being scrutinized because of his gambling debts. The guy was burnt out, in his own words. There's nothing to debate there, because he admitted it.

And, as I said earlier, even IF Jordan got himself into mental shape, there are basketball reasons why the Bulls may not have won. Grant's departure was HUGE, which placed the Bulls front-court in an even more vulnerable position against the Shaqs and Hakeems of the world. Hey look, you won't find a bigger Jordan nut than me, but I'm a realist. With a thin frontcourt, the odds of the Bulls winning the 95 title dropped a good bit. There's a reason Jordan played 15 years, and didn't win the title in 9 of those years. We cannot simply say 'Jordan's will to win was unparalleled and he'd have willed the team' while ignoring the importance of Jordan's cast in the big picture. Basketball is a team game. Generally, I agree with a good portion of your posts too, but I can't agree that 8 straight titles was a foregone conclusion. Really, it's not worth major discussion, because it amounts to a debate of 'what-ifs' which tend to go nowhere pretty fast.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Ro cha cha, NY
3,085 posts, read 4,220,347 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
If Jordan himself said this, I don't see how anyone could turn around and refute that. The words came from the man himself, and surely he knows his physical and mental readiness more than the rest of us? I'm not in position to link a video, but the guy admits that he contemplated retirement after the 93 title. The fact that his father died basically was the icing on the cake, but he already had thoughts of retirement prior. Now, for a 30 year old in his physical prime to be of that mentality, that must be some serious fatigue going on. Remember, we're also talking about a guy who played in the Olympics in 92( so much for summer rest) and whose private life was being scrutinized because of his gambling debts. The guy was burnt out, in his own words. There's nothing to debate there, because he admitted it.

And, as I said earlier, even IF Jordan got himself into mental shape, there are basketball reasons why the Bulls may not have won. Grant's departure was HUGE, which placed the Bulls front-court in an even more vulnerable position against the Shaqs and Hakeems of the world. Hey look, you won't find a bigger Jordan nut than me, but I'm a realist. With a thin frontcourt, the odds of the Bulls winning the 95 title dropped a good bit. There's a reason Jordan played 15 years, and didn't win the title in 9 of those years. We cannot simply say 'Jordan's will to win was unparalleled and he'd have willed the team' while ignoring the importance of Jordan's cast in the big picture. Basketball is a team game.
Once again. You make good points. However, just from the start of your post can be refuted. Athletes make or imply things all the time. Was he really burnt because he said so? We'll never truly know. If he was, could he have gotten it together in time to get himself physically as well as mentally back in the game for a championship run again? I like to think so. I might be a pessimist in this regard. So be it. Perhaps a bit naive. But you talk about the years he didn't win. Can you name three important players without looking it up who were on those young teams in the early years? He had nobody. It was like sticking him with the Washington wizards of today.

Then when he came back he was already passed his prime (talking last retirement). So those years don't matter much. Otherwise we would expect every player to be great every year. I was talking about those ten or more years when he was in his prime and was at his best, and no other player came close to him. No one ever asked who the best player was. Like they do today. They just knew..

Any player might feel too tired after winning three straight. That's what the offseason is for. Perhaps he could have just relaxed more. Bottom line is though we'll never know. We can easily assume he was just too tired, or we can have a gliimmer of hope and think that he was smart enough to figure it out. But I am not one who thinks Hakeem O was so great that it couldn't have been done. Many years when the Bulls were winning, the Knicks were the second best team in the league. The Rockets weren't even as reverred as the Knicks until they won. An earlier Knick team was better than those two Championship teams from Houston. But that's just my opinion. We both have a good comprehension of the game (or so I like to think). So we can just leave it at that. We'll never know. So neither of us really knows. No one does for sure. We can underanalyze or overanalyze all we want.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,887,254 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supermanpansy View Post
Once again. You make good points. However, just from the start of your post can be refuted. Athletes make or imply things all the time. Was he really burnt because he said so? We'll never truly know. If he was, could he have gotten it together in time to get himself physically as well as mentally back in the game for a championship run again? I like to think so. I might be a pessimist in this regard. So be it. Perhaps a bit naive. But you talk about the years he didn't win. Can you name three important players without looking it up who were on those young teams in the early years? He had nobody. It was like sticking him with the Washington wizards of today.
Precisely. We'll never know, and that alone makes this discussion pretty inconsequential. I mean, if Jordan says he was burnt out, there's not much point in trying to refute his own words just to push your own argument. You can accept his words, or not, but that doesn't necessarily negate the reality of the situation at that point. How serious was Jordan at that time? Who knows, I know neither of us definitively knows, which more or less makes this particular part of the discussion circular.

The thing is, you keep going on about Jordan's mentality. That, to me, is a secondary concern. I DO think that Jordan would gotten it together mentally in 95, but I don't know if the Bulls themselves would have been able to replace Grant's contributions. Kukoc certainly didn't provide the toughness, interior defense, or rebounding. THAT, is why I doubt the Bulls winning in 95, NOT Jordan's supposed mental fatigue. I mean hell, for all we know if Jordan hadn't retired, Grant may not have left, which means Rodman may not have ever joined the team. I mean, this is all retrospective and we really have no idea what would have happened.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,887,254 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supermanpansy View Post
So we can just leave it at that. We'll never know. So neither of us really knows. No one does for sure. We can underanalyze or overanalyze all we want.
BINGO!
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Old 03-05-2012, 02:40 PM
 
52,102 posts, read 41,919,559 times
Reputation: 32516
Quote:
Originally Posted by supermanpansy View Post
Exactly. And all the things you say apply to all players, except for MJ. I don't care what MJ said. He was mentally worn out. He had the offseason to relax. If he really wanted to, he could have. He was just too freaking competitive. He might not have had a seventy two game season, but he would have won two more. All it would have taken is a few doubtors, such as yourself to speak of him as if he were any other player but himself. To stress that he was too burnt to handle it and that he was too tired. If he had to at any time hear that, he would have switched gears and found motivation again. Plus, let's be honest. His father dieing impacted him profoundly. He stopped loving the game-because he stopped loving life. His father was so very important to him. Losing someone that close/changes people. If he did stay and lost, his father being killed would have been the biggest reason if any that he would not have acheived that. His will to win was no longer there when his father died. I didn't make myself clear. I guess I should have spoken about this aspect of it. This is all assuming his father had never been killed. I think he could have easily won those other two titles. However, when you factor in his father's death-that alone would have mentally made him not ready. Not him being normal mentally tired. I understand the argument about being tired. Having played so many more games every year. You do raise some good points. I figured this on my own years ago, but then it goes back to my main point. We are not talking about normal players. We are talking about MJ. MJ wasn't normal by any stretch. He could have gotten over "player fatigue" in time. He would have gotten back into winning shape. Not father being killed mentally. He wasn't ready for that challenge. Maybe that's why he walked away. He was so egotistical, he didn't want others to see him "not at his best". His father getting killed was the ***** in his armor..When your someone in his position. Most likely you trust very few people. He lost his most trusted confidant. He lost his best friend too. His father was everything to him.
And the manner in which his father died.

It still pisses me off when I think about those 2 morons that killed him to just drive around in the lexus for 2 days or so while calling their friends on the phone.

Really, utterly senseless.

Oh well, one can only imagine the treatment those two have gotten in a NC prison for killing Jordan's dad.

Quote:
The department of correction says Green has 12 serious infractions on his prison record. He says that comes from defending himself against prisoners who are Michael Jordan fans, and from the prison system.
Man Convicted of Killing Jordan's Father Breaks His Silence :: WRAL.com
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Old 03-08-2012, 06:58 PM
 
Location: Santa Ana
1,198 posts, read 2,052,487 times
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Also, I think Jordan could have scored 81 or more points in a game if he wanted to, he just cared more about helping his teammates, the most points Jordan scored in an NBA game was 69, but that game went into Overtime
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Lake Arlington Heights, IL
5,481 posts, read 10,417,775 times
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The '94 team got screwed over by a bad call in the Knick's series. Add Jordan and they win the title again that year. Hard to say about '95.
I still am angry they broke the team up so that Jerry could play "Frankenstien" with the roster to prove HE was the guy responsible for winning the rings.
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Cook County
5,288 posts, read 6,373,257 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubssoxfan View Post
The '94 team got screwed over by a bad call in the Knick's series. Add Jordan and they win the title again that year. Hard to say about '95.
I still am angry they broke the team up so that Jerry could play "Frankenstien" with the roster to prove HE was the guy responsible for winning the rings.
People often talk about the lost chances in 94/95, but I often think about if they kept the core together if they would have won anymore titles. 99 was a weird strike shortened season that had an 8 seed Knicks team making the finals, so I think its pretty safe to say the Bulls would have come out of the east that year. After that its hard to say as MJ was getting up there by 2000, and Rodman was basically ancient at that point. That was also when a dominating Shaq and Kobe duo in LA started their runs of titles.
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Earth
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In 99, you're talking about them matching up with the Spurs. I think that would have been a tough hurdle to overcome. Let's not forget that the Bulls in 98 were taken to the limit by the Pacers. They were, by far, at their 'worst' as far as that dynasty was concerned. Remember that Pippen had back surgery in 1998, and was never the same player. You could definitely see some slippage by MJ that final title season too, though he was still 'Jordan' of course. I honestly don't see that squad getting past the 99 Spurs. And I think you can forget about 2000. Prime Shaq and a young Kobe would give a 37 year old Jordan problems.
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