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Old 02-27-2012, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Santa Ana
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What more could have Michael Jordan accomplished besides winning more Championships? Many people do not bring this up, or discuss this much, but remember, Michael Jordan is third place on the NBA's All-Time Scoring List, if he had not taken those years off, had he played straight, consectutively all the way from his rookie year to his final retirement in 2003 with the Wizards, do you think he could have broked, surpassed Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's record on the All-Time scoring list? or just second place, ahead of Karl Malone? Also, Kobe Bryant very likely would not have passed Michael Jordan's All-Star game scoring record last night, and Kobe has 1 more All-Star Game MVP than MJ, MJ could have gotten maybe 1 or 2 more than the 3 All-Star Game MVP's he got.
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:01 AM
 
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Definitely would have past Kareem, he was putting up 2,500 pts/year and even with the years off he finished 6,000 points behind him.
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:04 PM
 
51,927 posts, read 41,791,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihatespoiledbrattypeople View Post
What more could have Michael Jordan accomplished besides winning more Championships? Many people do not bring this up, or discuss this much, but remember, Michael Jordan is third place on the NBA's All-Time Scoring List, if he had not taken those years off, had he played straight, consectutively all the way from his rookie year to his final retirement in 2003 with the Wizards, do you think he could have broked, surpassed Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's record on the All-Time scoring list? or just second place, ahead of Karl Malone? Also, Kobe Bryant very likely would not have passed Michael Jordan's All-Star game scoring record last night, and Kobe has 1 more All-Star Game MVP than MJ, MJ could have gotten maybe 1 or 2 more than the 3 All-Star Game MVP's he got.
Ok, for the record I'm a Bulls fan that lived in Chicago when all this was going on and an NBA fan for 20+ years. I watched a HUGE % of the bulls games during that era and followed them closely.

Here is my 2cents:

1) The Bulls having lost Horace Grant and not yet having picked up Rodman would not have won the 2 years Jordan took off. The Bulls were VERY thin in the paint and especially championships #5 and #6 the lack of Rodman would have most certainly cost them at least one of those, probably both. (As an example)

2) Jordan probably would be #1 scoring all-time, maybe not by a lot and quite frankly....not that it really matters. He'd have 2 more all-nba and all-star selections etc etc etc.

3) I don't think any of that changes his legacy and certainly pts scored in an all-star game is IMO pretty worthless in that it's a screw-off game for fun and when you play 100 games a season or so like Jordan (playoffs), any chance to rest a bit is a win.

Personally, I don't see Kobe passing Jordan in scoring etc will ever change the fact that he will never pass Jordan in terms of stature. The MVP's and championships pretty much solidify that and Kobe will not be adding to those totals unless he tacks on a few rings around age 37 playing a more supporting role which doesn't really count. Kobe will clearly go down as one of the top 10 or higher players of all-time and IMO the 2nd best guard ever.

P.S. The biggest difference between Kobe and Jordan was that Jordan had bigger hands and was a stronger paint player and finisher at the rim where Kobe is a better 3-pt shooter. In their primes jordan had about a 5% better FG%. I also feel that Jordan reached his prime sooner than Kobe did due to team dynamics (aka Shaq) and personality. Kobe hit his prime 2 years after Shaq left after spending the first year trying too hard to prove stuff.

Last edited by Mathguy; 02-27-2012 at 12:15 PM..
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Funny that you've asked this question, as it crossed my mind when I posted in Mathguy's Kobe thread earlier. The first thing we should establish, is that it's no guarantee that Jordan would have played till 40 had he not retired twice before. I've always envisioned a scenario where he played right through till about 37-38 with the Bulls( no Wizards footnote years). But with that in mind, the following comes to mind:

-Jordan missed practically the entire 1985-86 season. As a rookie, he averaged 28 ppg. His third year, 37.1. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that he would have averaged 30+ in 1986. That season alone was 2,000+ points lost.

- He lost two prime scoring years between 1993 and 1995. He averaged 32.6 the season he retired. I think we can safely assume he'd have scored similar numbers in 1994, and 1995. That lost season and a half, assuming he's healthy, is probably an easy 4,000 points. Just between these two points, that's like 6,000 points potentially lost between 1984 and when Jordan left the Bulls at 35 in 1998. That alone was enough to put Jordan in the ballpark of Kareem's total, at 35 years old.

- I suspect Jordan would have played right through till about 2000, or 2001, had he not retired before. There exists the possibility that without that break between 1993 and 1995, that Jordan may have begin to age noticeably by 1998. But I predict that he would have surpassed Kareem, assuming health and all that, in 1999.

Of course this is all ifs and speculation, but interesting to think about. I also predict that Jordan would have won at least one MVP in either 1994 or 1995 seasons, giving him 6 for his career, and the Bulls may have won a title in 1994. I don't think they would have gotten past the 95 Rockets, if for no other reason than the Bulls would have been very tired and defocused after 4 straight championships, and well Hakeem was playing some historic-level basketball in the playoffs. Not to forget, as Math said, the Bulls lost Horace grant in 1995 which left their frontline paper-thin.
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Personally, I don't see Kobe passing Jordan in scoring etc will ever change the fact that he will never pass Jordan in terms of stature.
Agreed. I think at this stage, if Kobe was going to be considered 'better' it would have happened by now. Jordan is still generally regarded as the greater player overall, but Kobe does have a chance to forge his own legacy by basically playing at a very high level for longer than any guard has before him.
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Ro cha cha, NY
3,044 posts, read 4,197,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihatespoiledbrattypeople View Post
What more could have Michael Jordan accomplished besides winning more Championships? Many people do not bring this up, or discuss this much, but remember, Michael Jordan is third place on the NBA's All-Time Scoring List, if he had not taken those years off, had he played straight, consectutively all the way from his rookie year to his final retirement in 2003 with the Wizards, do you think he could have broked, surpassed Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's record on the All-Time scoring list? or just second place, ahead of Karl Malone? Also, Kobe Bryant very likely would not have passed Michael Jordan's All-Star game scoring record last night, and Kobe has 1 more All-Star Game MVP than MJ, MJ could have gotten maybe 1 or 2 more than the 3 All-Star Game MVP's he got.

I don't know what scoring titles MJ would have or wouldn't have acheived. But he would have had alot more points. Plus Lebron and Kobe will have had many more years in the league. MJ went to college. MJ retired twice losing two years the first time and possibly more the second time..MJ I don't think ever really was looking long term. I can't say for sure that he would have won eight straight (had he not retired). But I will say that I think he had a shot at it. He was still the best at that time..

Kobe, while he is a great player, he will only surpass MJ in stats because of how many more years he will have. Plus lets talk about the All star games..For one, (I've been watching basketball a long time) players weren't so hungry for points when MJ played. They passed the ball more and played a little more defense..Did you see any defense at all played last night, besides the last few minutes? Today's players are straight selfish to a fault. They don't care that it looks like they are going for the MVP. Players in the past did it during the game. They weren't trying to score into the thirties because they knew everyone needed to get some scoring in. They didn't shoot every time they got the ball. Heck, I remember Magic's last all star game. They were feeding him the ball. So it wasn't as important to get the All star MVP after you've had it a few times..It seems a little different today..Different era's and different milestones players are trying to acheive. It's hard to compare players of yesteryear to players of today..

MJ screwed himself by retiring so much. Plus he didn't have the advantage of going into the NBA straight out of highschool..Compare year to year, MJ's stats I don't think will ever be surpassed..

No matter how many points Lebron or Kobe end up with. When you compare say fifteen years for MJ to Kobe's fifteen years to Lebrons fifteen years, MJ will have many more points and wins..
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:12 PM
 
51,927 posts, read 41,791,093 times
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Originally Posted by supermanpansy View Post
I don't know what scoring titles MJ would have or wouldn't have acheived. But he would have had alot more points. Plus Lebron and Kobe will have had many more years in the league. MJ went to college. MJ retired twice losing two years the first time and possibly more the second time..MJ I don't think ever really was looking long term. I can't say for sure that he would have won eight straight (had he not retired). But I will say that I think he had a shot at it. He was still the best at that time..

Kobe, while he is a great player, he will only surpass MJ in stats because of how many more years he will have. Plus lets talk about the All star games..For one, (I've been watching basketball a long time) players weren't so hungry for points when MJ played. They passed the ball more and played a little more defense..Did you see any defense at all played last night, besides the last few minutes? Today's players are straight selfish to a fault. They don't care that it looks like they are going for the MVP. Players in the past did it during the game. They weren't trying to score into the thirties because they knew everyone needed to get some scoring in. They didn't shoot every time they got the ball. Heck, I remember Magic's last all star game. They were feeding him the ball. So it wasn't as important to get the All star MVP after you've had it a few times..It seems a little different today..Different era's and different milestones players are trying to acheive. It's hard to compare players of yesteryear to players of today..

MJ screwed himself by retiring so much. Plus he didn't have the advantage of going into the NBA straight out of highschool..Compare year to year, MJ's stats I don't think will ever be surpassed..

No matter how many points Lebron or Kobe end up with. When you compare say fifteen years for MJ to Kobe's fifteen years to Lebrons fifteen years, MJ will have many more points and wins..
Yeah, I've pointed out before that many posters aren't old enough to have really seen Jordan in his prime and just sorta assume Kobe plays at a similar level.

Let's take a stroll down memory lane people.
Bulls 3rd Championship, finals vs. PHO

Michael Jordan 1992-93 Game Log | Basketball-Reference.com

6-games: Lowest pts 31, only one game shooting <50%

Carreer 49% shooter in the playoffs averaging over 33pts with 6 rebs and 6 assists
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Santa Ana
1,198 posts, read 2,049,245 times
Reputation: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Ok, for the record I'm a Bulls fan that lived in Chicago when all this was going on and an NBA fan for 20+ years. I watched a HUGE % of the bulls games during that era and followed them closely.

Here is my 2cents:

1) The Bulls having lost Horace Grant and not yet having picked up Rodman would not have won the 2 years Jordan took off. The Bulls were VERY thin in the paint and especially championships #5 and #6 the lack of Rodman would have most certainly cost them at least one of those, probably both. (As an example)

2) Jordan probably would be #1 scoring all-time, maybe not by a lot and quite frankly....not that it really matters. He'd have 2 more all-nba and all-star selections etc etc etc.

3) I don't think any of that changes his legacy and certainly pts scored in an all-star game is IMO pretty worthless in that it's a screw-off game for fun and when you play 100 games a season or so like Jordan (playoffs), any chance to rest a bit is a win.

Personally, I don't see Kobe passing Jordan in scoring etc will ever change the fact that he will never pass Jordan in terms of stature. The MVP's and championships pretty much solidify that and Kobe will not be adding to those totals unless he tacks on a few rings around age 37 playing a more supporting role which doesn't really count. Kobe will clearly go down as one of the top 10 or higher players of all-time and IMO the 2nd best guard ever.

P.S. The biggest difference between Kobe and Jordan was that Jordan had bigger hands and was a stronger paint player and finisher at the rim where Kobe is a better 3-pt shooter. In their primes jordan had about a 5% better FG%. I also feel that Jordan reached his prime sooner than Kobe did due to team dynamics (aka Shaq) and personality. Kobe hit his prime 2 years after Shaq left after spending the first year trying too hard to prove stuff.
yeah we obviously can't change the past, it is what it is, but still, I feel Jordan could have accomplished a whole lot more but nevertheless his legacy is still awesome, great, spectacular, the time he definetley should not have taken time off from was after his first 3-peat with the Bulls, the hiatus he took for Baseball. Also, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar also holds the NBA record for most All-Star Game selections, appearences, at 19, Jordan could have at least Tied or gotten close to Kareem at 18 appearences, the years Jordan did not make the All-Star game obviously were the 1994 and 1995 games due to him being away temporarily for Baseball, can't say 1999 because there was no All-Star game that year because of the Strike-Shortened season, way shorter than the current season is, but 2000 and 2001 he would have made the All-Star game mainly due to Popularity, which is why he made it in 2002 and 2003 in his years with the Wizards, so by calculating that, Jordan would have 18 All-Star game appearences instead of the 14 appearences he made, but still, honestly, since Michael Jordan is labeled the greatest Basketball player of all-time, it really feels like he should have broken Kareem's record and i believe he was quite capable of doing it
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:38 PM
 
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Michael Jordan would have 2 extra rings if he did not retire
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Old 02-27-2012, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Santa Ana
1,198 posts, read 2,049,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DVDFreaker View Post
Michael Jordan would have 2 extra rings if he did not retire
i feel likely at least 1 more ring and 7 Final's MVP's, the Bulls likely would not have beaten Hakeem Olajuwon's Rockets in 1995 Finals due to the loss of Horace Grant, but 1994, very likely, and I would have loved to have seen, been awesome to see Jordan break Kareem's record, i believe he could have, but oh well, it's the past but it's fun and interesting to talk, discuss about what could have happend, what could have been
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