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Old 04-13-2012, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,889,656 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Oh, and the reason Dallas even beat Miami is because they went ape-sheet from the 3pt. arc. Saying Lebron failed is actually insulting to just how insanely well Dirk and the Mavs played. They brought their A+ game, gotta give them credit.
And Lebron did not. In fact, he didn't even bring his C game. Here's a telling picture:




Now let's take a look at the results of the games:

Game 1: Miami 92, Dallas 84
Game 2: Miami 93, Dallas 95
Game 3: Miami 88, Dallas 86
Game 4: Miami 83, Dallas 86 ( Lebron 8 points, 9 rebounds, and 7 assists. REALLY??!)
Game 5: Miami 103, Dallas 112
Game 6: Miami 95, Dallas 105

Yeah.......Lebron was about as inconsequential in the 4th quarter of last year's finals, as any player I've seen of his stature and ability. None of those games were blowouts, in fact two of Dallas' victories were decided by 2 and 3 points( the latter of which Lebron has an inexcusable EIGHT points?!!) Dallas wasn't doing anything special defensively, certainly nothing beyond what Lebron had faced in the prior round against Chicago. It's not an insult to Dallas, who played well, but had they faced the Lebron who torched Boston and Chicago, history may have told a different story. The performance highlighted in the above picture, is inexcusable for a guy who's probably one of the top 5 most talented players in Basketball history.

Last edited by Roman77; 04-13-2012 at 11:41 AM..
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Old 04-13-2012, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Ro cha cha, NY
3,085 posts, read 4,224,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgtitans View Post
Last night was an example of what I'm talking about. All he had to do was hit both free throws and the game would have been over. Of course he bricks one. How can this guy get so much credit, for so many things but he is a marginal player in critical moments of the game? I honestly believe more and more that he was just a hype machine after Jordan left, but he will never live up that and there is a possibility that in a few years he may not even been considered a franchise ball player.

Ok, here's my two scents:

Lebron is as talented as any player to ever play the game, including Jordan. Not too many people dispute that. The difference between him and Jordan is passion/ desire. Lebron was given so many tools that he forgot that he had to hone' them..He might have started out on par physically with many of the greats, but he is mentally weak, and he never developed other parts of his game.

For one. He never really put in alot of work to improve his game. Take Jordan and Kobe for instance. They continually tweaked and improved their game since they entered the league. When certain abilities decreased, they found ways to score in other ways. This is something Lebron keeps failing to do. He loves the limelight. He loves people adoring him, yet he can't take criticism..He is very weak mentally and he doesn't have a strong work ethic.Those are his two downfalls.

He also doesn't have the key ingredient-desire. You can talk about how bad you want to win all day long but if you don't put in the work, it's not going to happen. I think he realized this two years ago and that's why he opted to go play with DWAde. He's not a bad person, but he lacks that "killer motivation" that the best had. Ala, Jordan, Kobe, Bird, Magic, Kareem, etc. Even Shag almost falls into Lebrons category. All the talent in the world for a man of his size, yet lacked the ability to motivate oneself. That's where him and Kobe clashed if I recall. Kobe was mad that Shag would come into camp out of shape..He felt like he didn't want it bad enough.

It goes to show that god can give you all the talent in the world, but if you don't "practice" more than the next guy who wants it more, in the end you get the same result. I also believe that Lebron is the type of player that needs reasurrance. He needs to be told how great he is. The media today can be very tiring on a player. I am not sure how some of the greats of the past would have handled it. Every wrong move scrutinized. I think he needs to stop listening to analyists, and get back in the gym. Forget about the nightlife. Forget about having DWade on your team. Pretend it's you and scrubs and start honing those skills. Stop listening to people who say you can't. Not every player can handle that type of criticism. The only player I remember who could have handled that is Kobe and Jordan. They had that mentality that if you told them that they couldn't do something-they WOULD prove you wrong.

At the end of the day though, he is what he is. He lacks something deep inside that none of us can truly explain no matter how hard we try. You can call it desire, you can call it motivation, you can call it drive. Whatever it is, he can't seem to find it..I think going to Miami was the worst move he could have done. It brought on tons of criticisms not just from analysts but from players alike. He's used to being coddled and now he was being criticized. Bottom line is something in him told him he needed someone like a Dwade to get him over the top..That just doesn't stand strong for someone who wants to be looked at as one of the greatest..

Once again, he is what he is. We keep thinking he is going to change, but he didn't become who he is overnight.
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Old 04-13-2012, 12:24 PM
 
Location: DMV
10,136 posts, read 11,678,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
We've covered this in a similar thread where someone was pointing to another time Lebron missed some FT's and was trying to label him a choker for doing so.

I think I blew up the thread when I posted Bird and Magic, yes THAT Bird....not Birdman doing the same thing.

Sorry, he nailed a 3 pointer without hesitation down 1 with just 40 seconds left....I have to give him props for that.

Even Reggie Miller missed 1 of 2 at key times.

Oh, and the reason Dallas even beat Miami is because they went ape-sheet from the 3pt. arc. Saying Lebron failed is actually insulting to just how insanely well Dirk and the Mavs played. They brought their A+ game, gotta give them credit.
Wow dude you are being a bit defensive and a little delusional.

I agree that the shot he hit was great, but let me ask you this, if that shot ended up winning the game, would you say that he won the game or that Miami played good enough defense to prevent Chicago from scoring again? With 40 seconds left, hitting that shot was not going to decide the game. This wasn't a buzzer beater, this was a big shot that ultimately didn't even decide the game. Let's not make it more than what it actually was. No matter what happened with that shot, they still needed their defense to get a stop.

You clearly didn't see the same finals that I saw. First, he had the largest drop in NBA finals history of PPG for a player that average 25+ ppg in the regular season. That has nothing to do with Dallas, that was just horrible play from him. And as Greg1977 pointed out, he scored 8 points in Game 4. That would have been the turning point and would have probably won the series for them.

And Dallas actually didn't play well until Game 4 in my opinion. Game 2 they were down by 16 and played sloppy ball. Carlisle called a timeout to settle the team and they did something that turned the series around, they were running their offense more effectively. The reason why they were losing at first is because they kept turning the ball over, which is where Lebron and Wade get their points. When the turnovers went down, so did Miami's offense. They were never able to adjust because they do not have a dynamic half court offense. They lack the chemistry to run an effective half court set which another reason why they struggled last night.
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Old 04-13-2012, 01:45 PM
 
52,112 posts, read 41,953,123 times
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I'm shocked. Shocked I say....that people are zeroing in on game 4 and ignoring other data. LOL.

What about Game 5? Lebron had a triple double but Dallas shot 13/19 from 3pt. range with Kidd, Terry and Barea all scorching it up.

Bosh SUCKED in games 1 and 2.

We can all agree that Lebron didn't have a great series in the finals. However, he was balls against the Bulls and Celts. Instead of saying he just had a bad series we now start this whole...."he can't take the heat" circus and then cherry pick just the instances that support our preconception.

Sorry guys, we will just have to agree to disagree on this one but I can spot skewed analysis from a mile away and the point of this thread condemning him because *gasp* he nails a 3 pt shot and then goes 1/2 from the FT line is seriously grasping at straws and axe grinding.

I leave you with this.....

Quote:
When Boston was winning by six points with 1 minute 48 seconds to play, Bird stepped to the line. Spectators blinked when he missed the two free throws ..... No one expects Larry Bird ever to miss--anything.

Except Bird did exactly the same thing the other night at Sacramento, on the opening night of Boston's western tour following the All-Star break. With a half-minute to play and the Celtics trailing the Kings by three points, Bird was hacked. He missed both of his free throws, and Boston lost.
For Celtics, Even Bad Bird Good Enough - Los Angeles Times

Even one of the greatest NBA shooters with icewater in his veins occasionally blew games missing BOTH free throws. Just saying....
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Old 04-13-2012, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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It's not Lebron's fault that he was being hyped up as the second coming of Jesus. Now that he hasn't won a ring, everyone is upset at Lebron.

If you ask me, he was a better player in Cleveland than he is with Miami.
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Old 04-13-2012, 05:18 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
I'm shocked. Shocked I say....that people are zeroing in on game 4 and ignoring other data. LOL.

What about Game 5? Lebron had a triple double but Dallas shot 13/19 from 3pt. range with Kidd, Terry and Barea all scorching it up.

Bosh SUCKED in games 1 and 2.

We can all agree that Lebron didn't have a great series in the finals. However, he was balls against the Bulls and Celts. Instead of saying he just had a bad series we now start this whole...."he can't take the heat" circus and then cherry pick just the instances that support our preconception.
I had a feeling the game 5 triple-double would surface in this debate. He had NO impact on that game, despite what the box score says. It was about as inconsequential a triple double as I've seen. And even then, the fact that he had this 'inconsequential' triple double doesn't excuse an 8 point effort in the finals. In Game 4, which was effectively the pivotal game in the series, seeing as Miami never won a game after that.

Bosh sucking is irrelevant...he's not on the same level with nowhere near the expectations. Lebron is responsible for his own play, and here's the thing: anyone watching that series can see he wasn't giving it his all. It's one thing to have a bad game shooting. It happens....but he was passive, reluctant to attack, not aggressive, disengaged ( like Game 5 against Boston in 2010). Even the commentators noticed this, so it was more than just 'not having a great series'. It was almost like he wasn't aware of the importance of the moment. Hey, someone slap Lebron upside the head, its the finals!!

The main point is, the HIGHER the expectation, the more that pressure gets to him. That's my observation.....the Bulls and Celtics were earlier rounds. The FINALS is where you make your legacy, not in the conference semi-finals. We're all waiting for the anointed one to bring it home. Not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4.....you get the idea.

Last edited by Roman77; 04-13-2012 at 05:33 PM..
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Old 04-13-2012, 09:42 PM
 
52,112 posts, read 41,953,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
I had a feeling the game 5 triple-double would surface in this debate. He had NO impact on that game, despite what the box score says. It was about as inconsequential a triple double as I've seen. And even then, the fact that he had this 'inconsequential' triple double doesn't excuse an 8 point effort in the finals. In Game 4, which was effectively the pivotal game in the series, seeing as Miami never won a game after that.

Bosh sucking is irrelevant...he's not on the same level with nowhere near the expectations. Lebron is responsible for his own play, and here's the thing: anyone watching that series can see he wasn't giving it his all. It's one thing to have a bad game shooting. It happens....but he was passive, reluctant to attack, not aggressive, disengaged ( like Game 5 against Boston in 2010). Even the commentators noticed this, so it was more than just 'not having a great series'. It was almost like he wasn't aware of the importance of the moment. Hey, someone slap Lebron upside the head, its the finals!!

The main point is, the HIGHER the expectation, the more that pressure gets to him. That's my observation.....the Bulls and Celtics were earlier rounds. The FINALS is where you make your legacy, not in the conference semi-finals. We're all waiting for the anointed one to bring it home. Not 1, not 2, not 3, not 4.....you get the idea.
I understand fully and you of course already know how much I respect your opinion in these discussions.

I will absolute state that the whole "party atmosphere" of Lebron and Bosh joining the Heat and predicting tons of championships is ON THEM if they don't get the job done.

I absolutely agree that he brought his C game to the finals last year.

I refuse to accept the premise of this thread that a guy that nails a critical 3 and then 1 of 2 free throws in the last minute of a tight game has somehow not hacked the pressure.
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Old 04-14-2012, 05:43 AM
 
Location: Earth
3,653 posts, read 3,889,656 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
I understand fully and you of course already know how much I respect your opinion in these discussions.

I will absolute state that the whole "party atmosphere" of Lebron and Bosh joining the Heat and predicting tons of championships is ON THEM if they don't get the job done.

I absolutely agree that he brought his C game to the finals last year.

I refuse to accept the premise of this thread that a guy that nails a critical 3 and then 1 of 2 free throws in the last minute of a tight game has somehow not hacked the pressure.
Of course, the respect is mutual.

I guess my comment, even though I posted it in this thread, was more of a general observation over the last few years, not specifically because of how the bulls game ended with the missed free throw. I've actually spoken to this issue fairly recently on another thread here.

Lebron,at the end of the day, needs to bring it home. There's not much left for him to do individually, but his legacy will be defined by championships. Otherwise, he's just Karl Malone 2.0. And in fairness, some of the criticism towards him is excessive, but on the other hand his lack of humility when he joined the Heat in 2010, is going to haunt him till he actually fulfills his claim. Until then, people aren't going to shut up. He needs to shut everyone up with his play, once and for all, and can only do so by producing on the biggest stage.
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Old 04-14-2012, 06:19 AM
 
52,112 posts, read 41,953,123 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977 View Post
Of course, the respect is mutual.

I guess my comment, even though I posted it in this thread, was more of a general observation over the last few years, not specifically because of how the bulls game ended with the missed free throw. I've actually spoken to this issue fairly recently on another thread here.

Lebron,at the end of the day, needs to bring it home. There's not much left for him to do individually, but his legacy will be defined by championships. Otherwise, he's just Karl Malone 2.0. And in fairness, some of the criticism towards him is excessive, but on the other hand his lack of humility when he joined the Heat in 2010, is going to haunt him till he actually fulfills his claim. Until then, people aren't going to shut up. He needs to shut everyone up with his play, once and for all, and can only do so by producing on the biggest stage.
Yeah, what's scary though is that if Bosh shows up that series, even Howard's C game might have been enough for a ring. If he has a ring, despite playing poorly we aren't having all these conversations.

It just reminds me somewhat of say.....Kobe's first ring....where he contributed rather meh as Shaq beasted on the 76ers. Kobe brought his C game that series but came away unscathed.

No question that Lebron being a tool with the decision, earned him some hate.
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Old 04-15-2012, 12:58 PM
 
1,232 posts, read 1,457,825 times
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Originally Posted by pgtitans View Post
How can this guy get so much credit, for so many things... he was just a hype machine after Jordan left, but he will never live up [to] that
First of all, LeBron James gets so much credit for doing so many things because, well, that's exactly what he does... so many things. Don't forget, we're talking about a player who's #3 in scoring, #26 in rebounding, and #14 in assists, making him the ONLY player in the top 26, in those three statistics. Even Michael Jordan never did that. Furthermore, I don't think anyone ever thought LeBron would live up to the 10, I repeat "TEN" scoring titles, and six out of eight championship run, that MJ had. I sure as hell didn't. There's absolutely nothing wrong with LeBron not living up to MJ, because NO ONE ever will.

The problem here, is that you don't realize the mark MJ left on this sport. Very few little men (players under 6' 10") average 50% shooting from the field, which is exactly what MJ did. He was clearly a beast, and competition... is NONE!

Last edited by Just1Fan; 04-15-2012 at 01:11 PM..
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