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So to your argument - Bulls - yes Jordan & Pippen were 2 of the top 10 players in the league, but Rodman not in the top 15, maybe top 25-35? BTW, Jordan & Pippen were both drafted by the Bulls - quite a big difference than teaming up.
You are backtracking. But regardless we are talking about Rodman versus Bosh, and Rodman was clearly better by a large margin.
You are backtracking. But regardless we are talking about Rodman versus Bosh, and Rodman was clearly better by a large margin.
How am I back-tracking? I said he was top 25-35 originally, and in my more recent post, I showed that he wasn't included in the top 15 players in his & the Bulls best season of 95-96. All I said was maybe you could make an argument for him belonging in front of Juwan Howard on the 3rd Team, but Howard had a fine season that year (22 PT/8 REB/4 ASST per game) so not sure that is even a good argument.
Rodman was clearly better on defense by a large margin, but Bosh is clearly better on offense by a large margin, so not sure how you can argue that Rodman was clearly better overall. He averaged 5.5 PTS/15 REB per game in 95-96 in 33 Minutes/game. Bosh averaged 18 PTS/8 REB per game this past season in 35 Minutes/game.
I would look at it this way: Bosh is a very good scorer and rebounder, Rodman was a DOMINANT rebounder and defender. So it comes down to who do you think is the more impactful player: a guy who gives you very good productions in two areas, or dominance in one area? We place alot of value on scoring( and yes, the object of the game is to outscore your opponent) but again Rodman was one of those players who can dominate a game scoring 5 points. Magic was like that as well, but on the offensive side of things. I saw an old Lakers game recently where Magic had like 8 points but he totally controlled the pace of the game, set teammates up or had a hockey assist where his pass led to a pass to a score. He just completely dominated the game, but you'd never know it if you only looked at the scoring column. Players like that are rare breeds.....
Rodman was just a maniac on defense. Remember, this is a guy who has guarded everyone from Michael Jordan, to Charles Barkley, to Karl Malone, to Shaq. That kind of defensive versatility is immeasurably valuable.
How am I back-tracking? I said he was top 25-35 originally, and in my more recent post, I showed that he wasn't included in the top 15 players in his & the Bulls best season of 95-96. All I said was maybe you could make an argument for him belonging in front of Juwan Howard on the 3rd Team, but Howard had a fine season that year (22 PT/8 REB/4 ASST per game) so not sure that is even a good argument.
Rodman was clearly better on defense by a large margin, but Bosh is clearly better on offense by a large margin, so not sure how you can argue that Rodman was clearly better overall. He averaged 5.5 PTS/15 REB per game in 95-96 in 33 Minutes/game. Bosh averaged 18 PTS/8 REB per game this past season in 35 Minutes/game.
Hard to compare since the NBA is both a lot more uptempo now and the Bulls were much deeper offensively than the Heat so Rodman would just play D and reel in rebounds and then reset the offense. His doing that allowed the team to get shots to guys like Harper, Kukoc and others which kept them involved.
If you trend up Rodmans numbers for tempo and to push them to 35minutes he's probably more like 6.5-17.5 which puts his production roughly there with Bosh. At that point the defense becomes the difference maker.
Don't get me wrong...I really like Bosh but we are talking about a guy that made the HOF scoring something like 7pts a game....there is a reason.
P.S. Speaking of 95-96....in the finals that year Rodman (aged 34) helped contain Sean Kemp (at the peak of his game age 27) and had two games that finals where he reached 11 rebounds. Oh wait, that's 11 OFFENSIVE rebounds.
Let's not forget that Rodman didn't shoot much and to not confuse that with not scoring much. If you have a dominant scorer with second options on a team....a guy who doesn't care how many shots\points he gets...plays defense as well as anyone and generates tons of extra possesions.....that's a coach's fantasy.
Hard to compare since the NBA is both a lot more uptempo now and the Bulls were much deeper offensively than the Heat so Rodman would just play D and reel in rebounds and then reset the offense. His doing that allowed the team to get shots to guys like Harper, Kukoc and others which kept them involved.
If you trend up Rodmans numbers for tempo and to push them to 35minutes he's probably more like 6.5-17.5 which puts his production roughly there with Bosh. At that point the defense becomes the difference maker.
Don't get me wrong...I really like Bosh but we are talking about a guy that made the HOF scoring something like 7pts a game....there is a reason.
P.S. Speaking of 95-96....in the finals that year Rodman (aged 34) helped contain Sean Kemp (at the peak of his game age 27) and had two games that finals where he reached 11 rebounds. Oh wait, that's 11 OFFENSIVE rebounds.
Let's not forget that Rodman didn't shoot much and to not confuse that with not scoring much. If you have a dominant scorer with second options on a team....a guy who doesn't care how many shots\points he gets...plays defense as well as anyone and generates tons of extra possesions.....that's a coach's fantasy.
You make great points. I agree in that I would definitely take Rodman in his prime over Bosh b/c of all the intangibles he brought to the table, but to say it's not even close as JDM was saying is just not a fair argument. Another thing to remember, while in Toronto, Bosh averaged roughly 23 PPG/10 RPG his last 5 seasons before going to Miami.
I think Anderson Varajeo is kind of a poor-man's Rodman today, he does all those little things that get under the other team's skin. Cavs were right around .500 before he got hurt this past season, then the bottom fell out the rest of the season. He actually scores a bit more than Rodman, but his focus is definitely on the intangibles/defense/rebounding like Rodman's was - which is why I will be kind of upset if the Cavs trade him tonight (unless they get a very, very nice package in return which is doubtful).
You make great points. I agree in that I would definitely take Rodman in his prime over Bosh b/c of all the intangibles he brought to the table, but to say it's not even close as JDM was saying is just not a fair argument. Another thing to remember, while in Toronto, Bosh averaged roughly 23 PPG/10 RPG his last 5 seasons before going to Miami.
I think Anderson Varajeo is kind of a poor-man's Rodman today, he does all those little things that get under the other team's skin. Cavs were right around .500 before he got hurt this past season, then the bottom fell out the rest of the season. He actually scores a bit more than Rodman, but his focus is definitely on the intangibles/defense/rebounding like Rodman's was - which is why I will be kind of upset if the Cavs trade him tonight (unless they get a very, very nice package in return which is doubtful).
This has been an excellent discussion, if a bit off-topic (which I'm every bit responsible for. ) +1 for you.
I guess the big picture of this thread is that Lebrons (insane) haters have morphed from he won't win to....oh, he had to CHEAT! And he won't reach his crazy promised numbers!
This after the whole "he can't take pressure" spiel.
Well, let's review:
1) He has matured. He can dominate in the clutch.
2) Yes, his moves 2 years ago from cleveland are still cringeworth d-bag moves.
3) People that can't differentiate their dislike of the person from his skills as a player shouldn't follow pro sports. Any pro sports.
Finals MVP, 3 time reg. season MVP and a ring. Hey guys, the debate now isn't whether he is huge...just how huge. Otherwise you look like an idiot talking basketball.
This has been an excellent discussion, if a bit off-topic (which I'm every bit responsible for. ) +1 for you.
I guess the big picture of this thread is that Lebrons (insane) haters have morphed from he won't win to....oh, he had to CHEAT! And he won't reach his crazy promised numbers!
This after the whole "he can't take pressure" spiel.
Well, let's review:
1) He has matured. He can dominate in the clutch.
2) Yes, his moves 2 years ago from cleveland are still cringeworth d-bag moves.
3) People that can't differentiate their dislike of the person from his skills as a player shouldn't follow pro sports. Any pro sports.
Finals MVP, 3 time reg. season MVP and a ring. Hey guys, the debate now isn't whether he is huge...just how huge. Otherwise you look like an idiot talking basketball.
Thanks...tried to give you a +1, but was told I gotta spread the love around first before giving you more points!
I am/have been one of the biggest criticizers of James the past 2 years, but it's been for his off the court actions (mostly anyway - still will never be able to overlook the way he quit during the 2010 playoffs vs. Boston; to see him play like he did the past 2 months magnifies just how much he indeed quit 2 seasons ago). I always knew he had the talent to lead his team to a championship, just didn't know if he had the drive to lead a team there. He showed this season he does, but I still say he took the easiest path to get there. I only recall him one time - during the 2007 playoffs - playing w/that kind of 'look' on his face that he wasn't going to be denied while in Cleveland. And he led arguably one of the weaker overall teams during his tenure in Cleveland to the Finals that season. It's his life, he had the right to go where he wanted, but IMO I think his image (which he seems to be so focused on) would have been better served had he stayed and even led the Cavs to just one championship rather than teaming up w/2 other superstars, even if they win 3 or 4 more. While I think they have a good shot the next couple of seasons, I think Wade's career is going to go fast (similar to Iverson's) as he has taken a lot of physical wear on his body during his career, and I'll be surprised if he is still playing anywhere near his current level 3-4 seasons from now.
Thanks...tried to give you a +1, but was told I gotta spread the love around first before giving you more points!
I am/have been one of the biggest criticizers of James the past 2 years, but it's been for his off the court actions (mostly anyway - still will never be able to overlook the way he quit during the 2010 playoffs vs. Boston; to see him play like he did the past 2 months magnifies just how much he indeed quit 2 seasons ago). I always knew he had the talent to lead his team to a championship, just didn't know if he had the drive to lead a team there. He showed this season he does, but I still say he took the easiest path to get there. I only recall him one time - during the 2007 playoffs - playing w/that kind of 'look' on his face that he wasn't going to be denied while in Cleveland. And he led arguably one of the weaker overall teams during his tenure in Cleveland to the Finals that season. It's his life, he had the right to go where he wanted, but IMO I think his image (which he seems to be so focused on) would have been better served had he stayed and even led the Cavs to just one championship rather than teaming up w/2 other superstars, even if they win 3 or 4 more. While I think they have a good shot the next couple of seasons, I think Wade's career is going to go fast (similar to Iverson's) as he has taken a lot of physical wear on his body during his career, and I'll be surprised if he is still playing anywhere near his current level 3-4 seasons from now.
Yeah, this Heat team has a shelf life and if you just look at other recent champs like the Spurs and Celtics....injuries can definitely snap any hopes of repeating championships. Heck, Bosh's injury this year made them almost lose to the Celtics and frankly I think that had the Bulls been healthy they would have beaten the Bosh-less Heat in the ECF so the Heat really dodged a bullet there.
Nice to see some fresh faces and up and coming teams though. I know we haven't heard the last of OKC.
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) +1 for you.
