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Guys you are ignoring include:
David Robinson - Essentially Dwight Howard with better scoring. 1st team all NBA, defensive player of year in 1992.
Karl Malone - 28yrs old and in his prime. Basically Kevin Love gets to play against a guy that is largely considered to be BETTER than Barkley. If that is too far back for you...imagine Tim Duncan in his prime.
Basically, Those 2 guys are going to destroy 2012....and Jordan is going to destroy Kobe or whomever else you play at the SG position. That means you have to somehow overwhelm at the SF and PG positions and sorry, but Stockton at 29yos old averaging 16pts/14assts is a tough defender who shot >40% from 3-pt range in 1992. CP3 etc. are not going to just punk him like Robinson and Malone are going to do to the 2012 guys.
Karl Malone - 28yrs old and in his prime. Basically Kevin Love gets to play against a guy that is largely considered to be BETTER than Barkley.
Personally I thought Barkley was the better player at his peak. Better rebounder, able to create his own offense much better. Karl was obviously a very good scorer, damn good jumpshooter particularly later in his career, but was reliant on Stockton to set the table for him as well. Barkley was fully capable of creating his own offense either off the dribble,in the post, or on the break. Mailman was certainly a better defensive player, but I don't think enough to say he was a more dominant force overall. Chuck is the only player I've seen play against Jordan in his prime, where on certain nights MJ wasn't the best player on the floor. It's a rare occasion when you can make that kind of claim.
Certainly the Mailman had the better career due to longevity, but from about 1988 to 1993, I thought Barkley was better. From about 1994 onwards, this is when age and lack of conditioning put Barkley below Malone.
Personally I thought Barkley was the better player at his peak. Better rebounder, able to create his own offense much better. Karl was obviously a very good scorer, damn good jumpshooter particularly later in his career, but was reliant on Stockton to set the table for him as well. Barkley was fully capable of creating his own offense either off the dribble,in the post, or on the break. Mailman was certainly a better defensive player, but I don't think enough to say he was a more dominant force overall. Chuck is the only player I've seen play against Jordan in his prime, where on certain nights MJ wasn't the best player on the floor. It's a rare occasion when you can make that kind of claim.
Certainly the Mailman had the better career due to longevity, but from about 1988 to 1993, I thought Barkley was better. From about 1994 onwards, this is when age and lack of conditioning put Barkley below Malone.
That's a great thing to debate.
Check out some of this old box score....
Barkley with a 32-12-10 triple double vs. Horace Grant (widely considered a top 4-5 defensive PF)
However....Jordan's 55points (on 57% shooting, take notes westbrook and kobe... ) was too much for Phx that night.
I believe it's called a "POINTLESS ARGUMENT" because the matchup will never happen so why even waste time debating who will win the game?
How bout starting a more sensible argument like
"Now that Nash is with the Lakers are they able to beat the Thunder in a playoff series?"
See that matchup is actually going to take place unlike the 1992 Dream Team and 2012 Wannabe Dream Team
How many threads have you attended? Do you think that we are solving world peace on these threads!?! Let the conversations roll and stop being a logjam.
How many threads have you attended? Do you think that we are solving world peace on these threads!?! Let the conversations roll and stop being a logjam.
Don't even get him started. It's been pleasantly peaceful today.
Barkley with a 32-12-10 triple double vs. Horace Grant (widely considered a top 4-5 defensive PF)
However....Jordan's 55points (on 57% shooting, take notes westbrook and kobe... ) was too much for Phx that night.
I agree Barkley at his peak was more explosive offensively. Depends whether you need the defense or not.
Well Malone wasn't necessarily a lockdown defender. He liked to strip the ball down low, and he'd give you a good shot if you drove to the rim on him. Wasn't really a defensive juggernaut, which is why I think overall Barkley brings more to the table in terms of peak performance. Admittedly, Sir Charles is one of my 5 favorite players all-time, but I'm trying to be objective regardless.
Well Malone wasn't necessarily a lockdown defender. He liked to strip the ball down low, and he'd give you a good shot if you drove to the rim on him. Wasn't really a defensive juggernaut, which is why I think overall Barkley brings more to the table in terms of peak performance. Admittedly, Sir Charles is one of my 5 favorite players all-time, but I'm trying to be objective regardless.
I dont know, I think Malone was highly underrated as a defender, especially early in his career. He was in the top 10 of defensive win shares every single year he was in the NBA (Barkley cracked the top 10 1 year). Some of that is because he was a pretty good on the ball, but I think most of it is because of his incredible size. Malone was a beast, and if he had you posted up, you werent going anywhere. Barkley was just a doughy undersized guy who could be dominated down low. Neither were very good shot blockers.
Also to be fair, Barkley had peaked during the 89-90 season offensively, while Malone didnt peak offensively until the mid 90's. Barkley was probably at his absolute best around the 87-88 season, while Malone probably peaked as a complete player around 96-97.
If purely looking at an offensive stand point, I would choose Barkley in 1992, but not by much, and only because he was one the best offensive rebounders of the last couple decades.
As a complete player though, Id take Malone. Malones offensive contribution isnt that significantly less than Barkley, but his defensive contribution is significantly higher. Also, playing Barkley limits the size advantage the Dream Team would have.
I dont know, I think Malone was highly underrated as a defender, especially early in his career. He was in the top 10 of defensive win shares every single year he was in the NBA (Barkley cracked the top 10 1 year). Some of that is because he was a pretty good on the ball, but I think most of it is because of his incredible size. Malone was a beast, and if he had you posted up, you werent going anywhere. Barkley was just a doughy undersized guy who could be dominated down low. Neither were very good shot blockers.
Also to be fair, Barkley had peaked during the 89-90 season offensively, while Malone didnt peak offensively until the mid 90's. Barkley was probably at his absolute best around the 87-88 season, while Malone probably peaked as a complete player around 96-97.
If purely looking at an offensive stand point, I would choose Barkley in 1992, but not by much, and only because he was one the best offensive rebounders of the last couple decades.
As a complete player though, Id take Malone. Malones offensive contribution isnt that significantly less than Barkley, but his defensive contribution is significantly higher. Also, playing Barkley limits the size advantage the Dream Team would have.
Excellent discussion guys.
Hmmmm.....with K Love and Chandler in the paint I'd almost rather go with Barkley since I'd rather have the extra offensive rebounding. AFter all the paint is where DT92 is going to beat DT2012.
DT92 is going to shoot a very high percentage with their interior advantage and MUCH better post scoring options (like that Jordan fellow as well as the bigs) so offensive rebounding would be huge in the series. You can give up some of the defense since Robinson and Ewing are going to be able to anchor the paint and it's not like Tyson Chandler requires their full attention.
Also to be fair, Barkley had peaked during the 89-90 season offensively, while Malone didnt peak offensively until the mid 90's. Barkley was probably at his absolute best around the 87-88 season, while Malone probably peaked as a complete player around 96-97.
If purely looking at an offensive stand point, I would choose Barkley in 1992, but not by much, and only because he was one the best offensive rebounders of the last couple decades.
As a complete player though, Id take Malone. Malones offensive contribution isnt that significantly less than Barkley, but his defensive contribution is significantly higher. Also, playing Barkley limits the size advantage the Dream Team would have.
No way was Barkley at his best in 1988. I think his absolute best was around 90. At that point he had a great case as the best player after Jordan and Magic. Bear in mind that I gave Charles a 5 year window where I felt he was better, 88-93. I've already acknowledged that Malone was probably better after 94, and had the better career.
I still take Barkley overall at their very best. If we're adding the sum of parts, Barkley was a better rebounder, and a better scorer, better in the clutch, Malone the better rebounder. Scoring numbers are deceiving here, because Malone was fed alot by Stockton. Barkley needed no-one to get his offense. That alone is enough to vault him over Malone for me, despite his inferior defense. Barkley was also a better playoff performer at his peak, performed better in big games. You could build a team around Barkley, and be competitive. We never got to see that with Malone, because he was more of a two-man tandem with Stockton. I'm not sure how he'd have performed if he was the solo lead player on a team. We know that Barkley more than ably filled that role, and it's safe to say that he could have been even better playing with Stockton passing the ball to him.
And believe me, Barkley's size would not be an issue against the 2012 team. This guy was a DOMINANT force at a point in time when the league had several standout centers and power forwards. Size is not a concern here.
No way was Barkley at his best in 1988. I think his absolute best was around 90. At that point he had a great case as the best player after Jordan and Magic. Bear in mind that I gave Charles a 5 year window where I felt he was better, 88-93. I've already acknowledged that Malone was probably better after 94, and had the better career.
Offensively Barkley was probably at his best around 1990, but his defense started slipping after 87-88.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977
I still take Barkley overall at their very best. If we're adding the sum of parts, Barkley was a better rebounder, and a better scorer, better in the clutch, Malone the better rebounder. Scoring numbers are deceiving here, because Malone was fed alot by Stockton. Barkley needed no-one to get his offense. That alone is enough to vault him over Malone for me, despite his inferior defense.
How can you knock Malone for having a good point guard? Jordan was on an elite team, and played with a hall of famer most of his life, but we never knock him. We never knock Kobe, even though hes played on one of the best teams money can buy his whole career.
By the way, how can you even make the argument that Barkley did it himself? He had Maurice Cheeks (11th all time in assists) and Kevin Johnson (18th all time) passing him the ball most of his career.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977
Barkley was also a better playoff performer at his peak, performed better in big games. You could build a team around Barkley, and be competitive. We never got to see that with Malone, because he was more of a two-man tandem with Stockton.
We never got to see that with Barkley. Barkley was an all star every year from 87-97, 7 of those 11 years, he wasnt even the only all-star from his team. Barkley went from a good Sixers team to a loaded Suns team, to a loaded Rockets team.
87- Mo Cheeks joined him
88- Mo Cheeks
91- Hershey Hawkins
93- Dan Majerle
94- Kevin Johnson
95- Dan Majerle
97- Hakeem Olajuwon
By the way, speaking of building a team around him, Barkley never once managed to make it through a full 82 games, in fact, he only played over 80 games 3 of his 16 years. Malone played less than 80 games only 2 seasons in his 19 year career.
If you want a dependable player, its not Barkley.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg1977
And believe me, Barkley's size would not be an issue against the 2012 team. This guy was a DOMINANT force at a point in time when the league had several standout centers and power forwards. Size is not a concern here.
Barkleys size hurt his defense, and it always held him back on that side of the ball. Its also why he never became an elite defensive rebounder.
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) was too much for Phx that night.
Pointless
