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Old 05-06-2013, 02:21 PM
 
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If we look at the pure definition of "MVP", being the most valuable player to one's team in it's success, it has to go to Carmelo. The best way to show this is if Lebron was taken off the Heat as they are structured now, they would still be at four five seed, capable of winning a series or two, whereas if Carmelo was taken off the Knicks, they would be a seven or eight seed AT BEST, capable of winning a playoff GAME or two. In Cleveland, Lebron totally deserves his MVP awards, and I do believe he is the BEST player in the league, just not the most valuable.
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Old 05-06-2013, 02:56 PM
 
Location: Howard County, MD
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I can maybe buy the "team" argument a a tiebreaker between really close candidates, but this time its indefensible. Carmelo is nowhere near LeBron's level.

And the North American Big Four need to take a page from FIFA's book and change the mvp to "Player of the Year", to make rational comparisons easier and stop muddying things up with speculative arguments about what a team would be like without its star.
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Old 05-06-2013, 03:14 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David910 View Post
If we look at the pure definition of "MVP", being the most valuable player to one's team in it's success, it has to go to Carmelo. The best way to show this is if Lebron was taken off the Heat as they are structured now, they would still be at four five seed, capable of winning a series or two, whereas if Carmelo was taken off the Knicks, they would be a seven or eight seed AT BEST, capable of winning a playoff GAME or two. In Cleveland, Lebron totally deserves his MVP awards, and I do believe he is the BEST player in the league, just not the most valuable.

Gee, if we apply that criteria, James Harden, Dirk Nowitzki, or any superstar on a crap team would be MVP.
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Old 05-06-2013, 03:20 PM
 
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Meh ..... switch LeBron and Carmelo - the knicks get better, the heat get worse ...... the heat this year would be a much worse team without LeBron, he facilitates so much of what they do on both ends of the court that he covers for weak spots in a lot of players games and allows for a wide variety of pieces to fit together

Also, there is a huge jump from being a top 4 seed contender in the east to being the odds on NBA champion favorite ..... using your own words you have a team that is a 7-8 seed that elevates to a team that may make the ECF if things break correctly .... basically moving from a 7-8 seed to a team that is in the 2-3 range

Also using your scale you have a team that would be a 4 or 5 and maybe win a series or two bolstered to the absolute favorite to win the entire thing, a team that swept through it's first round opponent while resting players .... a team, that including the playoffs is 41-2 over their prior 43 games .... that team is on such a different plane, it's elevated beyond just a 1 seed and I think you discount just how incredibly difficult it is to get over the hump or have the type of success that this team is having .... only 9 teams in the history of the league have finished with more than the 66 wins the heat posted this year

He's super valuable
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Old 05-06-2013, 03:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jaypee View Post
Gee, if we apply that criteria, James Harden, Dirk Nowitzki, or any superstar on a crap team would be MVP.
No, because the Knicks are a two seed and those guys are out of it right now.
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Old 05-06-2013, 03:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
Meh ..... switch LeBron and Carmelo - the knicks get better, the heat get worse ...... the heat this year would be a much worse team without LeBron, he facilitates so much of what they do on both ends of the court that he covers for weak spots in a lot of players games and allows for a wide variety of pieces to fit together

Also, there is a huge jump from being a top 4 seed contender in the east to being the odds on NBA champion favorite ..... using your own words you have a team that is a 7-8 seed that elevates to a team that may make the ECF if things break correctly .... basically moving from a 7-8 seed to a team that is in the 2-3 range

Also using your scale you have a team that would be a 4 or 5 and maybe win a series or two bolstered to the absolute favorite to win the entire thing, a team that swept through it's first round opponent while resting players .... a team, that including the playoffs is 41-2 over their prior 43 games .... that team is on such a different plane, it's elevated beyond just a 1 seed and I think you discount just how incredibly difficult it is to get over the hump or have the type of success that this team is having .... only 9 teams in the history of the league have finished with more than the 66 wins the heat posted this year

He's super valuable
First off, notice I said "AT BEST", there is a good chance the Knicks would not make the playoffs without Carmelo. Second, I know he is super valuable, but, not as valuable to HIS TEAM, as Carmelo. You switch the two teams the players are on, and I probably say Lebron is MVP. But, because Lebron is on such an awesome team, he is not as valuable as someone, still on a good team, but almost single-handidly carrying his team through the postseason. It's just a technicality of the award, but if it's going to be this way, then Carmelo deserves to win it.
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Old 05-06-2013, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Syracuse, New York
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Being from Syracuse, I have much love for Carmelo. LeBron makes his team the odds-on favorite to win the championship.

Carmelo made his team the favorite to win his division.
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Old 05-06-2013, 03:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by David910 View Post
You switch the two teams the players are on, and I probably say Lebron is MVP.
Just doesn't make sense

Using that logic I'd say Steph Curry is the league MVP - he has the warriors in the 2nd round of a more competative western conference

You could run that by almost any team ..... look not at how large of a drop they would have without them, but look at the level the team is elevated by them being there

With the LeBron the Heat are a historically good team - without him they are an also ran and not a serious title contender

Without Carmelo the Knicks are a team that is looking to fight with Milwaukee for that 8th seed - with him, they elevate all the way up to an also ran that isn't a serious title contender

The jump from fringe playoff team to also ran isn't as large as the jump from also ran to historically good contender
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Old 05-06-2013, 03:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finger Laker View Post
Just doesn't make sense

Using that logic I'd say Steph Curry is the league MVP - he has the warriors in the 2nd round of a more competative western conference

You could run that by almost any team ..... look not at how large of a drop they would have without them, but look at the level the team is elevated by them being there

With the LeBron the Heat are a historically good team - without him they are an also ran and not a serious title contender

Without Carmelo the Knicks are a team that is looking to fight with Milwaukee for that 8th seed - with him, they elevate all the way up to an also ran that isn't a serious title contender

The jump from fringe playoff team to also ran isn't as large as the jump from also ran to historically good contender
With Allen, Bosh, and Wade, yes I could see them going to the Eastern Conference Finals. Steph Curry is not a good argument because of all of the pieces around him. If he goes down, they still have a chance to win. Without Carmelo? No way in hell.
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Old 05-06-2013, 04:16 PM
 
9,028 posts, read 16,421,659 times
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Originally Posted by David910 View Post
Steph Curry is not a good argument because of all of the pieces around him.
Yes - playoff teams are driven by Andrew Bogut, Festus Ezeli, Brandon Rush, Richard Jefferson, Draymond Green, Jarrett Jack, Carl Landry, Harrison Barnes, Klay Thompson, David Lee ...... you really think that 10 man rotation comes close to sniffing the playoffs? ..... they'd be in Suns territory

LeBron plays 73% of the minutes and his team is a staggering +15.3 on-off when he's playing
Carmelo plays 63% of the minutes and his team is +3.4 on-off

LeBron leads the league in win shares per 48 minutes at .322 (league average is 1) ..... Carmelo is 18th at .184

There are a good half dozen to dozen players in the NBA that could have the Knicks make the same level of jump ..... There is no player in the league that can make the Heat have the same kind of jump

I think you overestimate how good the Knicks are, underestimate how good the Heat are or most likely both
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