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There is one caveat to Jordan losing early on in his career, that I have yet to see mentioned yet: he had literally nothing to work with until Pippen and Grant came onboard and developed. Then again, Lebron didn't have much to work with either early on, but the eastern conference of the mid-late 80's was far and away superior to the eastern conference that Leron has played in. Jordan lost to the Celtics? Yeah, the mid 80s Celtics are widely considered one of the great teams in league history. The 2007 Cavs even making it to the finals that year is an indictment of how crappy the east was at that point, not so much a testament to Lebron's greatness( though he was obviously very good back then, and had that 'lightning in a bottle' 48 pt explosion against Detroit, but he wasn't close to the player he is now).
At the end of the day, Jordan and Lebron's careers aren't really similar enough to make many comparisons about what one did at his age, versus what the other did at their age , and so on. Same with Kobe, totally different kind of career starting out with Shaq and a talented Lakers squad. All of these comparisons need a heavy dose of context and perspective; I just prefer to sit back and watch greatness at that given moment in time. These comparisons are endless, subjective, and ultimately futile.
Yeah, and I dont buy that he had NO help in Cleveland either. They were constantly tinkering with the team for him, and Gilbert wouldve tried anything he could.
No one ever has no help. But if you think Lebron's supporting cast in Cleveland was remotely close to Jordan's supporting casts during championship years in Chicago then you do not understand the sport.
Constant tinkering and an owner willing try to anything doesn't build a championship team. In fact, those are hallmarks of a desperate front office that doesn't know what they're doing and is just throwing things at the wall hoping that something will stick.
Not to mention coaching.
Jordan- Phil Jackson, arguably the greatest coach of all time
Lebron- Mike Brown, aka Mr. Potato Head, a guy who can't coach offense and mostly just stands on the sidelines making dumb faces
Quote:
Originally Posted by slo1318
He left because he couldnt get it done on his own and wanted help, cant imagine MJ doing the same.
Easy to say what Jordan would or wouldn't have done considering that the Bulls acquired Scottie Pippen and Horace grant before Jordan's (edit, good catch Greg1977) 4th year, when he was still on his rookie contract. Lebron played 7 years in Cleveland on crap teams. To say what Jordan would or wouldn't have done is pure speculation.
Furthermore, you think Jordan would have stayed in Chicago and kept playing with scrubs around him for his whole career? What happened to Jordan's impeccable and unmatched drive to win?
Quote:
Originally Posted by slo1318
The whole move to South Beach was orchestrated by Bosh/Wade/Lebron. Bosh was never going to Cleveland, they wanted Wades help, especially since he had already won a title.
Lebron tried to talk Bosh into going to Cleveland. Bosh didn't want to play for the Cavaliers. Neither did anyone else in the NBA.
Last edited by EugeneOnegin; 05-29-2013 at 10:18 AM..
Easy to say what Jordan would or wouldn't have done considering that the Bulls acquired Scottie Pippen and Horace grant before Jordan's 3rd year, when he was still on his rookie contract.
Slight correction there, Pippen and Grant joined in Jordan's 4th season.
1984-85
1985-86
1986-87
1987-88- Pippen and Grant join as rookies.
-Jordan's official stance was that he had accomplished everything he had to as a basketball player, and was losing the drive to keep playing( this was after multiple rings, MVPs, scoring titles).
-I've heard grumblings that David Stern 'suspended' him behind the scenes because of his various gambling issues that were bringing undue attention to the league, and instead of having his preeminent money-maker embarrassed publicly, Jordan 'retired'. That's only hearsay though.
- There's also the matter of his father's death, one theory I've heard was that he was murdered due to a gambling debt but again, that's just speculation I've heard over the years.
All in all, I don't think it was a situation where he 'simply' quit on his team, but a series of events that led him to take hiatus from the game. This is based on all available information. I don't see why he would 'quit' just for the hell of it; he was at the apex of his career and with the addition of Toni Kukoc would have been favored to win the 1994 title.
Who knows exactly what the reasons were. I don't think his dad getting killed had anything to do with his gambling.
I don't think Stern forced him out. That theory doesn't make sense to me, since Jordan was the league's cash cow and having a gambling problem isn't exactly the greatest sin in the world, but I suppose it's possible.
I just think it's kind of funny that people give Lebron crap for quitting on his team when Jordan left his team for a year and a half to play baseball during his peak and in the middle of their championship runs.
Who knows exactly what the reasons were. I don't think his dad getting killed had anything to do with his gambling.
I don't think Stern forced him out. That theory doesn't make sense to me, since Jordan was the league's cash cow and having a gambling problem isn't exactly the greatest sin in the world, but I suppose it's possible.
I just think it's kind of funny that people give Lebron crap for quitting on his team when Jordan left his team for a year and a half to play baseball during his peak and in the middle of their championship runs.
I'm only basing those comments on rumblings I've heard over the years. As you said, who really knows?
I just don't think Jordan 'quit' on the Bulls as you suggested. I recall reading a book where Jordan was considering retirement before the 1993 season. Who knows what the truth is other than info has been put out to the masses.
No one ever has no help. But if you think Lebron's supporting cast in Cleveland was remotely close to Jordan's supporting casts during championship years in Chicago then you do not understand the sport.
Constant tinkering and an owner willing try to anything doesn't build a championship team. In fact, those are hallmarks of a desperate front office that doesn't know what they're doing and is just throwing things at the wall hoping that something will stick.
Not to mention coaching.
Jordan- Phil Jackson, arguably the greatest coach of all time
Lebron- Mike Brown, aka Mr. Potato Head, a guy who can't coach offense and mostly just stands on the sidelines making dumb faces
Easy to say what Jordan would or wouldn't have done considering that the Bulls acquired Scottie Pippen and Horace grant before Jordan's (edit, good catch Greg1977) 4th year, when he was still on his rookie contract. Lebron played 7 years in Cleveland on crap teams. To say what Jordan would or wouldn't have done is pure speculation.
Furthermore, you think Jordan would have stayed in Chicago and kept playing with scrubs around him for his whole career? What happened to Jordan's impeccable and unmatched drive to win?
Lebron tried to talk Bosh into going to Cleveland. Bosh didn't want to play for the Cavaliers. Neither did anyone else in the NBA.
So Lebron left at a younger age then Jordan winning his first championship. Cleveland was winning and going to the playoffs, even the finals. He could have stuck it out and won. Players would have come there to play with him. Bosh would have, but they already had it all planned out. Lebron was just completing the plan. The "decision" was made during the Olympics.
Lets not over rate Horace Grant, he was a nice player but was not elite or even all star worthy. Pippen was very good, but how many title teams didnt have a 2nd tier star? Pippen is not a top 50 player of all time, he got credit because he played with Jordan.
Jordan was just a baller, winner, however you want to say it. Lebron just lacks something in his psyche to do what Jordan did. If Miami didnt win a title or two with what they have assembled then his stock would really sink.....
There is one caveat to Jordan losing early on in his career, that I have yet to see mentioned yet: he had literally nothing to work with until Pippen and Grant came onboard and developed. Then again, Lebron didn't have much to work with either early on, but the eastern conference of the mid-late 80's was far and away superior to the eastern conference that Leron has played in. Jordan lost to the Celtics? Yeah, the mid 80s Celtics are widely considered one of the great teams in league history. The 2007 Cavs even making it to the finals that year is an indictment of how crappy the east was at that point, not so much a testament to Lebron's greatness( though he was obviously very good back then, and had that 'lightning in a bottle' 48 pt explosion against Detroit, but he wasn't close to the player he is now).
I agree with this for the most part.
Up to age 28, Jordan generally faced better competition and didn't advance as far. Lebron generally faced lesser competition and advanced further. Neither advanced past the great teams in their conference at those teams' peaks. Neither had much help for most of this time. I consider that a wash, more or less.
But to some losing in the finals is considered worse than losing in the first or second round. Or even missing the playoffs entirely.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EugeneOnegin
Lebron generally faced lesser competition and advanced further.
Look at Lebron's road to the ECF this year. it's been a cakewalk. Milwaukee was a joke. Then Lebron faced a depleted Bulls team without their best player Derrick Rose and Deng injured. Now Lebron is playing the Pacers who are without Danny Granger, a guy who averaged 18 PPG & 5 rebounds last year for Indy.
Just agreeing with some of you that said Lebron hasn't really faced tough competition in the playoffs over the years, and this is one of them. A playoff team with a losing record in Milwaukee round 1, a Chicago team that was missing 3 of its 5 starters for a few games in the series, and a Pacers team without their starting small forward Danny Granger who was the Indiana Pacers' leading scorer last year.
a very easy road to the finals for Miami this year.
So Lebron left at a younger age then Jordan winning his first championship. Cleveland was winning and going to the playoffs, even the finals. He could have stuck it out and won. Players would have come there to play with him. Bosh would have, but they already had it all planned out. Lebron was just completing the plan. The "decision" was made during the Olympics.
How do you know Bosh would have come to Cleveland? How do you know the Cavs could have won if he stayed? How do you know players would have come there to play with Lebron when they hadn't before? How do you know they hatched some plan in the Olympics?
You seem to be just making things up to go along with your narrative. Bosh actually agreed to join Miami before Lebron. He joined Miami and then he and Wade lobbied Lebron to join.
Why does Shaq not get the same criticism for leaving Orlando? Nash leaving the Mavs? Garnett leaving the Timerberwolves (after wasting nearly all his prime in Minnesota)? Kobe almost signed with the Clippers at one point because his supporting cast was weak on the Lakers. It is believed that Jordan almost signed with the Knicks.
What would you do if your job offered no chance to advance your career? If you were stuck in a dead end job? Would you stay there and hope it got better or would you go somewhere else?
Quote:
Originally Posted by slo1318
Lets not over rate Horace Grant, he was a nice player but was not elite or even all star worthy. Pippen was very good, but how many title teams didnt have a 2nd tier star? Pippen is not a top 50 player of all time, he got credit because he played with Jordan.
The idea that Pippen wasn't that great and only got credit because of Jordan is ridiculous. While Jordan was playing baseball Pippen was averaging 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists, 2.9 steals, and 0.8 blocks per game on 49.1% shooting. He made first team All NBA, was 3rd in MVP voting, and the led the Bulls to 55 wins and took a very good Knicks team to 7 games in the playoffs. How many "2nd tier stars" do you know that make first team All NBA and finish 3rd in MVP voting? He was also one of the best perimeter defenders of all time.
And who was Lebron's "2nd tier star" in Cleveland? Mo Williams? Larry Hughes? Over the hill Shaq? Washed up Ben Wallace? Wally Z? Illgauskus? Antoine Jamison?
Look at Lebron's road to the ECF this year. it's been a cakewalk. Milwaukee was a joke. Then Lebron faced a depleted Bulls team without their best player Derrick Rose and Deng injured. Now Lebron is playing the Pacers who are without Danny Granger, a guy who averaged 18 PPG & 5 rebounds last year for Indy.
Just agreeing with some of you that said Lebron hasn't really faced tough competition in the playoffs over the years, and this is one of them. A playoff team with a losing record in Milwaukee round 1, a Chicago team that was missing 3 of its 5 starters for a few games in the series, and a Pacers team without their starting small forward Danny Granger who was the Indiana Pacers' leading scorer last year.
a very easy road to the finals for Miami this year.
We were comparing their pre-28/pre-title competition. But I agree, the road to the finals this year has definitely been weak so far.
Some other years, not so much. 2009 he faced a 66-win Celtics team with 3 future hall of famers that won the championship. 2010 he faced the same Celtics team that would go back to the finals. 2011 he faced the Celtics again, a 62-win Bulls team with great defense and the best record in the league, and then a Mavs team with Dirk playing out of his mind all playoffs. The Thunder last year are probably as good a team as Jordan ever faced in the finals. They rolled through the Mavs, Lakers, and Spurs in order to get to the finals and looked unstoppable.
I don't think Jordan's competition in his championship-winning years was particularly great either. When they finally beat the Pistons, Isiah was coming off wrist surgery and the team was beginning a rapid decline. The Celtics were old and Bird had back problems. Kareem was retired and Magic had HIV. The league had added a lot of teams before and during the Bulls' run.
The Jazz, Sonics, Knicks, Pacers, Suns, Blazers, Cavs, and Magic that Jordan faced in his championship years are fairly comparable to the Spurs, Celtics, Mavs, Thunder, Pistons, and Magic that Lebron has faced so far imo.
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