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Old 09-10-2013, 09:35 AM
 
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You hear a lot of discussion about best player to never win a championship. (Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Reggie Miller, Karl Malone/John Stockton, Elgin Baylor etc) but my question is concerning the best player to never win an MVP award, in the NBA (sorry, forgot to put that in the subject line).

My #1 choice--Jason Kidd. (You could also throw in Chris Webber, Tracy McGrady, perhaps Gary Payton.) I agreed with Shaquille O'Neal in 2002 when, while being interviewed in the aftermath of his winning the championship and finals MVP (defeating the Nets with Kidd in the process), he said "congratulations to Jason Kidd, the REAL MVP" Tim Duncan had won it, and to me Jason Kidd should've. Their turnaround that year vs the prior was remarkable, perhaps second only to Boston Celtics 2007 vs 2008, & he was the biggest reason for it. He had great seasons year after year as well, somewhere along those lines he should've won it.

(You could also talk about guys who won "only" one & should've won more, Shaq/Kobe come to mind, as well as Dr. J, although he probably would've had he not been in the ABA vs NBA for the 1st 4-odd years of his career.)

You guys may have different opinions about my choice, though. Your thoughts? Let the debate begin.

LRH
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:46 AM
 
3,279 posts, read 4,074,661 times
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Here I go answering my own post somewhat, but I read up a bit more on this after (should have before posting, I know), and in light of that, a new list.

Jerry West. I didn't realize he never won the MVP award. How in the world? I might have to crown him king of the "best never to win an MVP" category over Jason Kidd, actually.

Elgin Baylor--man, another really great player who never won one.

Isiah Thomas. Often overlooked as he played in the 80s during Magic/Jordan/Bird, but he was right there.

Scottie Pippen. In 1994 anyway, you could really argue it.

Also I guess there is 2 ways you could look at this--best player in terms of how talented they were but couldn't win due to playing in an era of an all-time great like Wilt or Jordan, vs players who SHOULD have won it in a given year but didn't and then were never able to again later. Jason Kidd jumped out at me on that one. Certainly Tim Duncan is an all-time great, but I don't think it's like the late 80s-early 90s players who had a hard time winning because of Jordan winning all the time, or 80s players not winning due to Magic & Larry winning all the time. To me, for the impact Kidd had on the Nets, they go from one of the worst records in the league to playing in the FINALS (which they did again the following year), & Kidd is the main reason why, plus his year-to-year excellence besides, I think that he never won wasn't due to Duncan/Shaq/Kobe dominating the early 2000s, like in the prior examples I gave. I think they just plain gave it to the wrong man in 2002, frankly.

LRH
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:38 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
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Bernard King.


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Old 09-12-2013, 09:46 AM
 
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The problem is that the MVP award has shifted over the years.

To win the MVP in the current environment, your team pretty much has to have one of the top records and then you have to be the stud on that team.

We had a thread on this a while back here where I listed the MVP's and their teams win-loss standing and it's heavily driven by overall record.

For example, if Miami loses Wade and Bosh for the season and finish with 48 wins.....Lebron won't win the MVP even if he plays at the exact same level as the year before.

As another example, Nash has 2 MVP's and BARELY lost out on a 3rd. That's a freaking joke. lol.
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Old 09-12-2013, 11:58 AM
 
350 posts, read 600,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larrytxeast View Post
Here I go answering my own post somewhat, but I read up a bit more on this after (should have before posting, I know), and in light of that, a new list.

Jerry West. I didn't realize he never won the MVP award. How in the world? I might have to crown him king of the "best never to win an MVP" category over Jason Kidd, actually.

Elgin Baylor--man, another really great player who never won one.

Isiah Thomas. Often overlooked as he played in the 80s during Magic/Jordan/Bird, but he was right there.

Scottie Pippen. In 1994 anyway, you could really argue it.

Also I guess there is 2 ways you could look at this--best player in terms of how talented they were but couldn't win due to playing in an era of an all-time great like Wilt or Jordan, vs players who SHOULD have won it in a given year but didn't and then were never able to again later. Jason Kidd jumped out at me on that one. Certainly Tim Duncan is an all-time great, but I don't think it's like the late 80s-early 90s players who had a hard time winning because of Jordan winning all the time, or 80s players not winning due to Magic & Larry winning all the time. To me, for the impact Kidd had on the Nets, they go from one of the worst records in the league to playing in the FINALS (which they did again the following year), & Kidd is the main reason why, plus his year-to-year excellence besides, I think that he never won wasn't due to Duncan/Shaq/Kobe dominating the early 2000s, like in the prior examples I gave. I think they just plain gave it to the wrong man in 2002, frankly.

LRH
Jerry and Elgin played in the same era as Wilt and Bill Russel.
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Old 09-12-2013, 02:57 PM
 
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Kidd and Ewing. Kidd got robbed in '02 and Ewing had to go up against Jordan, Hakeem, Admiral, and Magic.
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Old 09-12-2013, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Miami/ Washington DC
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Dwayne Wade. No doubt in my mind. He should have gotten in in 2008-2009, that was his year but the Heat were a 5th seed in the playoffs. And everyone wanted Lebron to get his. The season Wade had that year was unbelievable
30pts 7.5 assist 2.2 steals 1.3 blocks and 5 rebounds a game on 49% shooting. Wow what a season.

Obviously Wade is still playing and still a top player in the league but its clear he wont be getting any MVPs .
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Old 09-12-2013, 05:32 PM
 
589 posts, read 535,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyMIA View Post
Dwayne Wade. No doubt in my mind. He should have gotten in in 2008-2009, that was his year but the Heat were a 5th seed in the playoffs. And everyone wanted Lebron to get his. The season Wade had that year was unbelievable
30pts 7.5 assist 2.2 steals 1.3 blocks and 5 rebounds a game on 49% shooting. Wow what a season.

Obviously Wade is still playing and still a top player in the league but its clear he wont be getting any MVPs .

Wade in '09 was almost identical to McGrady in '03. Take both off their respective teams, and their slightly above .500 squads became 20 win teams very quickly.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:04 AM
 
51,857 posts, read 41,758,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyMIA View Post
Dwayne Wade. No doubt in my mind. He should have gotten in in 2008-2009, that was his year but the Heat were a 5th seed in the playoffs. And everyone wanted Lebron to get his. The season Wade had that year was unbelievable
30pts 7.5 assist 2.2 steals 1.3 blocks and 5 rebounds a game on 49% shooting. Wow what a season.

Obviously Wade is still playing and still a top player in the league but its clear he wont be getting any MVPs .
Exactly. Because the MVP award really is a team record award given to an individual.

I think the lowest seed to win an MVP award in the last forever was something like 3rd and that only happened once. (going off memory, I put all those stats in another thread here a year or so back and am too lazy to dig it up. )
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Old 09-15-2013, 08:22 AM
 
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
10,421 posts, read 12,406,700 times
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Some other players that didn't get mentioned yet...

John Stockton, Penny Hardaway, Tiny Archibald
George Gervin, Clyde Drexler, John Havlicek
Dominique Wilkins, Rick Barry, Grant Hill
Elvin Hayes, Nate Thurmond, Kevin McHale
Alonzo Mourning, Bob Lanier
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