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All this "He won with" or "He didn't win without" is all garbage haterade logic. You can say that about literally everyone in the all-time top 10.
"If Jordan didn't have Pippen..."
"If Bird didn't have McHale or Parish..."
"If Kobe didn't have Shaq, or Gasol...."
It's one of the most ridiculous pieces of fantasy logic people bring up, and it really has no weight when it comes to comparing players like these. All great players with any sort of post-season success had a great #2, and even #3 in most cases (like Paul Pierce did with KG and Ray Ray).
As for Kobe vs Magic, it's not a huge gap for me. I think the gap between Bird and Kobe is bigger than the gap between Kobe and Magic. I see it very, very close. I could see people rating Kobe over Magic and not blink an eye, but in my personal opinion, he's not.
From best to worst:
Magic .. Kobe .......... Bird
That's how I see it.
I don't agree Kobe was better on both ends of the floor. The Magic I remember from the early 1980s was a 6'9 guy who was quick and athletic enough to play point guard. Magic in his prime was just as deadly a scorer, a better passer, rebounder, and could play the post against pretty much any front court player (Magic did play center during the finals when Kareem got injured). On the defensive end, Magic was sneaky, he was a 2 steal a game type of guy, he's not Chris Paul, but if you didn't protect the ball, Magic would take it. He could also man up on 7 footers, can't say that about Kobe. Kobe is the better perimeter defender though, and probably slightly better in transition on the offensive end due to his better overall speed.
That being said I don't mind a ranking where Kobe is above Magic, but I do think it's very hard to defend a Bird over Magic or Kobe ranking, unless you're a big time Bird nuthugger (like EddieHaskell).
What? Literally every case you made for magic being better than Kobe could be applied to Bird. Also, it does not take a "nuthugger" to consider Bird better than Kobe. He is almost universally accepted as the better player. Bird against Magic is very close and I consider them equals. To say a case cannot be made for Bird over Magic is silly. In fact, almost everyone had Bird as the superior player until he messed his back up
All this "He won with" or "He didn't win without" is all garbage haterade logic. You can say that about literally everyone in the all-time top 10.
"If Jordan didn't have Pippen..."
"If Bird didn't have McHale or Parish..."
"If Kobe didn't have Shaq, or Gasol...."
It's one of the most ridiculous pieces of fantasy logic people bring up, and it really has no weight when it comes to comparing players like these. All great players with any sort of post-season success had a great #2, and even #3 in most cases (like Paul Pierce did with KG and Ray Ray).
As for Kobe vs Magic, it's not a huge gap for me. I think the gap between Bird and Kobe is bigger than the gap between Kobe and Magic. I see it very, very close. I could see people rating Kobe over Magic and not blink an eye, but in my personal opinion, he's not.
From best to worst:
Magic .. Kobe .......... Bird
That's how I see it.
I don't agree Kobe was better on both ends of the floor. The Magic I remember from the early 1980s was a 6'9 guy who was quick and athletic enough to play point guard. Magic in his prime was just as deadly a scorer, a better passer, rebounder, and could play the post against pretty much any front court player (Magic did play center during the finals when Kareem got injured). On the defensive end, Magic was sneaky, he was a 2 steal a game type of guy, he's not Chris Paul, but if you didn't protect the ball, Magic would take it. He could also man up on 7 footers, can't say that about Kobe. Kobe is the better perimeter defender though, and probably slightly better in transition on the offensive end due to his better overall speed.
That being said I don't mind a ranking where Kobe is above Magic, but I do think it's very hard to defend a Bird over Magic or Kobe ranking, unless you're a big time Bird nuthugger (like EddieHaskell).
- No, Earvin couldn't pretty much play in the front court against anybody, at least defensively. And again, no, the only time Earvin spent at the 5 in the Finals was for tip-off; Jim Chones was the center for that game.
-I'm not sure if I'd say he was a better passer, Bean's an exceptional passer, the assist disparity comes from Bean playing in the triangle. Plus, he's a SG, so natrually his assists will be lower. As far as ability, I don't see any difference, as being able to get their respective players open looks.
- Kobe ***** on Earvin on the defensive end, and by a large margin. End of discussion. Don't give me that BS about him being able to guard anybody, he couldn't guard the ******* ballboy, and bringing up his steals when most of the time he had terrible positioning, and gambled in the lanes. EVERY SINGLE POINT GUARD WORTH A DAMN ate good and PLENTY when they played a Earvin Jonhnson-led team, what league where you watching??
Like the previous poster said, I'm not sure how you can rank Earvin over Bean, and not Bird, yet Bird and Magic aren't seperated by more than a spot or two in the rankings, plus being just a better player, and doing just as much/more with less. Magic and Shaquille BOTH (two players that most would consider better than Bird) have said that Kobe passed 'em up, so I'd like to know what you and the previous poster are seeing, that they themselves aren't?
I frankly, cannot really put Bird ahead of Duncan, they are both top-10 guys IMO....Ducan is a brutal defender too.
Just adding that very important letter you forgot. And I just feel that if you followed both players careers live, than there'd be no way you'd consider Duncan better.
Just adding that very important letter you forgot. And I just feel that if you followed both players careers live, than there'd be no way you'd consider Duncan better.
This is your response to my pointing out that Bird played his career in an era where the up-tempo play and meh defense meant teams generated about 20% more points etc. per game?
Hey, I love Bird but your stats comparison isn't fair.
I'm not going to fight with you over where we jockey Bird or Duncan or Kobe around in the top 10. It's kinda like arguing about which delicious beer is slightly more delicious than another. I'm also not going to stomp my feet and call you a poopy head over a subjective decision.
I'd just hope that you'd appreciate learning something new. Frankly, that's why I like posting here, I definitely get some good insights and learn stuff be it trades, salary caps, history of past players I didn't get to watch fully and so forth.
I don't know how Kobe would make a top ten list. I admire him, especially his mental toughness and work ethic, but top 10?
How does Kobe make a list that would include Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Dr. J, Russell, LBJ, Olajuwon, Malone (either one, take your pick). This list could go on for quite some time. I'd rate guys like John Stockton, Scottie Pippen, Kevin McHale, Dennis Rodman, and James Worthy ahead of Kobe Bryant. I haven't even mentioned old-timers like Walt Frazier, Jerry West, Artis Gilmore, and Rick Barry. No way does Kobe make any top 10 all time list.
He's a great player w/ 5 rings, and impressive competitor. His career averages of 5.3 rebounds and 4.8 assists are good for a shooting guard. But I don't see how you put him in the top 10. Clyde Drexler had better overall stats than Kobe, but is he in the top 10 of all time? Probably not.
Kobe was a much better defender than Drexler. As previously mentioned, the difference between the top 10 guys and the top 10-20 guys is generally the fact that they did EVERYTHING really well.
Defense is why I rate Kobe the #2 SG to play the game.
He is almost universally accepted as the better player.
No.
Quote:
Bird against Magic is very close and I consider them equals. To say a case cannot be made for Bird over Magic is silly. In fact, almost everyone had Bird as the superior player until he messed his back up
Magic was by far the better player and it showed. Magic got more rings during that era, and the Lakers were the dominant team of the 80s. Yes, the Celtics challenged them the most out of any team during that era, but the Lakers had the better success, mostly because of Magic.
bringing up his steals when most of the time he had terrible positioning, and gambled in the lanes. EVERY SINGLE POINT GUARD WORTH A DAMN ate good and PLENTY when they played a Earvin Jonhnson-led team,
Tha hate that Kobe get is amazing but funny at tha same time/So ths closest thing to Jordan we will ever see is not even top 10 to some of you haters, arguably the greatest skilled player ever and hands tha greatest offensive player ever,ten 50 point games in 1 season, 81 points and sat out half the 4th, 62 in 3 quarters & 50 through 65 four in a row games .....
So let's look at tha top 10 before we put Kobe on tha list
Mj
Magic
Bill Russell
Kareem
Wilt chamberlain
Larry bird
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Dr J
Now that's a pretty solid list but Kobe is clearly better than Larry bird so that puts him number 6 but he collected more rings thsn chamberlain and competed in a tougher era so now he's at 5 and offensively & defensivly he is better than Magic just like Jordan so with that being said he better than everybody far as skills go but if we factor in stats and chsmpionships he gotta be top 4 of all time and duncan with his 5th is right behind him and Magic at 6 but I still say Shaq in his prime is better than duncan....
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I'm also not going to stomp my feet and call you a poopy head over a subjective decision. 
