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I believe that IS the point exactly. They were TERRIBLE. Meaning that even in the Eastern conference they had no business being a 60 win team, yet, with Lebron they were a 60+ win team in each of his last two years in Cleveland. And who did he have as his best teammate? Jamison?
And what did they do? Lebron had a serious lack of confidence in late big games. You could watch those games and he wanted no part of a last shot often throwing the ball away with a bad pass. It wasnt until he was propped up by Dwayne Wade did he gain confidence. Look what he did against the Mavs in 11. He wanted no part of greatness. 17 pts a game in that finals!? Thats never happened to Kobe or MJ. If not for luck he'd be 1-4 in finals appearances.
do realize that while shaw had some great numbers early on, in his 19 year career, he only played more than 70 games 7 times, he had 8 seasons where he played 60 or less. the 3peat he played 67 games each season, and had 1 season of 61. while his numbers look great early on, he had no durability, no longevity outside of his persona.
duncan has 13 of 18 seasons of 70+ and most of those missed games were "rest" games
he has 2 seasons of less than 60 games, both being lock out seasons.
he has 2 69 game and 1 66 game season. his career numbers are very similar to shaqs.
he has 1 more ring, same number of all stars, same number of playoff births, 1 more mvp, same finals mvp, he FIFTEEN to THREE all defense teams (shaq never made a 1st team), 1 more all nba, and 2 more all nba 1st teams.
shaq played 1 more season than duncan, and duncan can catch him in points in 2 more seasons if he is so inclined, duncan has 1600 more rebounds, 1000 more assists, 250 more steals, 200 more blocks, shaq shoots a higher %, duncan kills him on FT shooting. in the playoffs, shaq got a little better, duncan got a good bit better.
ultimately their numbers look very similar (shaqs a little higher scoring, duncan a little higher just about everywhere else.) their head to head stats are very similar also. the big difference is in the awards, and in the fact that duncan has played so consistently through more games, more full/near full seasons. if shaq had stayed consistent with his numbers and played more games he might have just been the greatest ever. (i take away from him some because of the "ring chasing" he did later in his career)
bird had some solid seasons, not missing games. except his 10th season he played 6 games, might as well throw that season out. then his last 2 seasons 60 and 45 games.
he was a scoring machine who could rebound and pass, his ppg and assist are both a good bit higher than duncan. larrys best rebounding season doesnt reach tims career average. one issue i see is, in the playoffs, larrys numbers drop or stay virtually the same (up or down a couple tenths) where tims all go up. then take in the 2 rings, the 5 more playoffs, the 3 more all star games, larry has 2 more mvp, tim has 1 more finals mvp, tims got 1 more all nba and 5 more 1st teams, like shaq, larry has 3 all defense, and zero 1st teams.
they both have 9 top 5 mvp award shares.
once again, larry was consistent, except the later part of his career. tims consistency, his rings, his all defense, and those extra 5 all nba teams (and the 1 more 1st team) put him over the top.
You seem a little fixated on longevity instead of who was the best basketball player at their peak. Tim's body has held up, but that alone will never make him a top 5 player all time.
There's really nothing similar about Duncan and Shaq. Shaq was a far more dominant and unstoppable player in his prime.
Of course Bird doesn't quite reach Tim's rebound numbers - Bird was a small forward!!! The fact that they're close proves Bird was the better rebounder, far better passer and scorer.
Yes, Tim has more championships, but he also never had to play the Showtime Lakers in the finals and he was never unlucky enough to have injuries in his 30s like Bird.
I believe that IS the point exactly. They were TERRIBLE. Meaning that even in the Eastern conference they had no business being a 60 win team, yet, with Lebron they were a 60+ win team in each of his last two years in Cleveland. And who did he have as his best teammate? Jamison?
Does that simply prove that with one great player you can win 60 games playing in the east? If we are going to give Lebron credit for making those Cleveland teams "great" how do we also not criticize him for never winning a championship and flopping in the playoffs. You can't have it both ways. Did Lebron make the Cavs great yet he flopped in the playoffs or were the Cavs not really as good as their record indicated, thus we shouldn't consider winning 60 games a great feat?
Last edited by eddiehaskell; 05-30-2015 at 02:39 PM..
How many 50-win teams a player eliminated is irrelevant. I mean, Kobe beat more than Jordan, and Bird only beat ten. Meaningless statistic to measure playoff ball, right?
But since you guys like talking meaningless statistics, here's another: in the last 5 postseasons, Lebron James is 8-2 versus 50-win opponents, his only two losses being the '11 Mavs and '14 Spurs. This, after starting his career 1-5 versus 50-win opponents during his first five playoffs (06-10, his first run in Cleveland), only win being the '07 Pistons. And just for comparisons' sake, Tim Duncan is 5-3 versus 50-win opponents in the last 5 playoffs, with two first round eliminations. But we accept his championship pedigree and don't mention this...
How many 50-win teams a player eliminates is irrelevant and a bad way to gauge playoff ball...
I guess I never understood statistics prefaced by "since Lebron entered the league" or "in the past 5 seasons." Isn't Kobe's all-time scoring list potential, and other statistics, held back because he came off of the bench to replace Eddie Jones? That fact usually isn't mentioned against other players who were first-option starting players from their rookie year onward.
To start a franchise, I'm picking Duncan over Jordan, Kobe or Lebron. If you're on a team with Duncan, you're guaranteed, at minimum, a playoff appearance in the Western conference gauntlet. Lebron's .400 in the Finals against Western teams suggests he wouldn't be as successful as Duncan over his long career.
You seem a little fixated on longevity instead of who was the best basketball player at their peak. Tim's body has held up, but that alone will never make him a top 5 player all time.
There's really nothing similar about Duncan and Shaq. Shaq was a far more dominant and unstoppable player in his prime.
Of course Bird doesn't quite reach Tim's rebound numbers - Bird was a small forward!!! The fact that they're close proves Bird was the better rebounder, far better passer and scorer.
Yes, Tim has more championships, but he also never had to play the Showtime Lakers in the finals and he was never unlucky enough to have injuries in his 30s like Bird.
Longevity isn't as big a factor as a short period of dominance? That's ridiculous, I mean why not narrow it down to who had the best single game?
Longevity is a greater value that short spans. I mean grant hill was ridiculous but he couldn't sustain.
Tim Duncan has VERY similar numbers as shaq, yet more accolades put upon him by people in the nba circle. He's won more, and sustained his winning.
You're nuts if you start a Franchise with Jordan or Kobe over LeBron James. Just my two cents. I'll take the guy that is 6'8 and not a ball hog. I'm a lifelong Kobe fan, but come on guys.
I agree that LeBron is a better player to build a franchise around, but that still does not make him a better individual player than either Jordan or Kobe.
And what did they do? Lebron had a serious lack of confidence in late big games. You could watch those games and he wanted no part of a last shot often throwing the ball away with a bad pass. It wasnt until he was propped up by Dwayne Wade did he gain confidence. Look what he did against the Mavs in 11. He wanted no part of greatness. 17 pts a game in that finals!? Thats never happened to Kobe or MJ. If not for luck he'd be 1-4 in finals appearances.
Basketball is a TEAM game. Jordan had a much better team than both. The Bulls won 55 games without Jordan. They were one game away from the conference finals. When Lebron left Cleveland, they were a lottery team in the pathetic East you are talking about. The Heat also missed the playoffs.
Kobe has been in the same conference as Tim Duncan. Kobe has frequently defended the other teams best 2-3, and occasionally Point Guards like Russell Westbrook and Chris Paul. Jordan didn't. Jordan was a good help defender, but I wouldn't be able to put Jordan on Carmelo Anthony, for example (who Kobe has defended). What 1-3s has Jordan locked down over the course of his career? Kobe has quite a long list that he has defended, especially in the playoffs.
LOL! Jordan's 3 point percentage is lower than Kobe's, despite Kobe making a career of taking contested (often late-shot clock) shots. Kobe had the better J, easily.
To start a franchise, I'm picking Duncan over Jordan, Kobe or Lebron. If you're on a team with Duncan, you're guaranteed, at minimum, a playoff appearance in the Western conference gauntlet. Lebron's .400 in the Finals against Western teams suggests he wouldn't be as successful as Duncan over his long career.
So does that mean you also take Duncan over Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Bird? Is Tim Duncan the best basketball player to ever live? If you take him over Jordan, I see no reason for not taking him over anyone.
So does that mean you also take Duncan over Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Bird? Is Tim Duncan the best basketball player to ever live? If you take him over Jordan, I see no reason for not taking him over anyone.
Huge stretch to claim Duncan's the GOAT.
Wow you went from "guaranteed a playoff spot in the rough west" to Duncan is goat.
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