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I'm not saying LeBron is better, but the Michael Jordan admiration is out of control.
He was definitely a great player and certainly in the discussion for the greatest of all time, but I don't think it's settled.
For the record, I saw every great player in person from 1985 on, so I'm not some kid who loves LeBron and Kobe because that's all I know.
Jordan's career requires a lot more dissection than we can give in this discussion.
I once had a friend tell me there will NEVER be a better player than Jordan. EVER. Not just in the lifetime of that friend, but EVER.
That's just silly.
I used to hear stories about Mikan, Robertson, Russell, Chamberlain, Erving, etc. I used to hear those guys were "the best ever."
There won't ever be another player as good as Jordan. Not because nobody will have the talent, but because the way the game has changed won't allow it. What really made Jordan what he was was the fact that he cut his teeth during the most physical era the league has ever seen. The stuff he dealt with from Detroit and Boston pushed him to that extra level. When you think about it, Jordan's career was the perfect storm. He was the right player at the right time. That's the only era that really could have created a MJ.
With the way the rules favor a more wide open offensive style over defense, players coming up now just aren't going to be pushed like that. It's a softer game.
Lebron and Jordan in the finals at about 30 years old....
Jordan: 41 ppg/50.8%/8.5rpg/6.3apg/1.7spg/2.7 topg
Lebron: 41.5 ppg/39.7%/12.0rpg/8.5apg/0.5spg/3.5topg (2 games so far....)
Jordan played 45.7 mpg and Lebron has played 48 mpg.
Both of them logged a lot of minutes and at about the same age. Lebron averaging 3.5 more boards and 2.2 more assist, but 1.2 less steals and 0.8 more turnovers. The biggest difference is that Jordan scored 41 ppg on ~51% shooting whereas Lebron does it on ~40% shooting. That's a pretty huge gap in efficiency.
I don't think LeBron is the GOAT. In the years I've been watching basketball, I would give that owner to MJ. Consider the fact that I am 35 years old and have only ben watching basketball since about 1991, when I was 11 years old. I think some of the players since MJ are more talented, but to me what sets MJ apart was the mental game. I don't think any of today's players have his aura of invincibility, and that helped MJ kinda beat his opponents before they even played the game. He played in the most competitive and physical era of the game. There were some really good teams in the league, and more true superstars than there are now. MJ had is growing up years, but once he reached his peak, he ruled over the NBA until his final game. If he doesn't walk away from the game for the '93-94 and most of the 94-95 season, they Bulls would have won 8 consecutive titles. They played great teams in the Finals as well. The Lakers were on their last legs in '90-'91, but still had Magic and Worthy. Portland was a great, deep squad in '91-'92. Phoenix and Barkley were awesome in '92-'93. The Sonics of GP and Kemp were right there with the record-setting Bulls during the regular season. And the two Jazz teams were led by Malone and Stockton.... 'nuff said. None of these teams pushed the Bulls to even a Game 7.
IMO, and again, I didn't see Oscar or West or Pete, or Wilt, or Russell play, but I think LeBron is the most TALENTED player ever. At 6'8", he is Karl Malone with Magic's game. That is a freak of nature. But he is not the GOAT.
Claiming LeBron to be the GOAT may be getting out of hand, but claiming that he's awful and a loser is just as ridiculous. I highly doubt MJ and Kobe could have gotten to the finals in 2007 with that awful Cavs team. I seem to recall the Lakers getting their asses kicked out of the first round before Gasol came, for example. The Heat probably should have beaten the Mavs, and they had some strange chemistry issues that year between James and Wade. Last year the Heat just gave up and abandoned LeBron.
Btw, let's at least wait until they lose this year's finals before calling him 2-4 (or 1-5 as some people stupidly say). We haven't even seen game 2 yet. And why does everyone want to forget that LeBron hit a 3 right before Allen's shot in game 6? If he didn't make that, they would have been down by 5-7, not 3, and Allen's shot would have been meaningless.
I don't think getting to the 2007 Finals helps Lebron's legacy. The East was horrible. It wasn't much of an accomplishment especially since they got swept. I think beating the Warriors this year would mean way more for his legacy than anything. It's hard to say what MJ or Kobe would have done in a similar circumstance.
I don't think LeBron is the GOAT. In the years I've been watching basketball, I would give that owner to MJ. Consider the fact that I am 35 years old and have only ben watching basketball since about 1991, when I was 11 years old. I think some of the players since MJ are more talented, but to me what sets MJ apart was the mental game. I don't think any of today's players have his aura of invincibility, and that helped MJ kinda beat his opponents before they even played the game. He played in the most competitive and physical era of the game. There were some really good teams in the league, and more true superstars than there are now. MJ had is growing up years, but once he reached his peak, he ruled over the NBA until his final game. If he doesn't walk away from the game for the '93-94 and most of the 94-95 season, they Bulls would have won 8 consecutive titles. They played great teams in the Finals as well. The Lakers were on their last legs in '90-'91, but still had Magic and Worthy. Portland was a great, deep squad in '91-'92. Phoenix and Barkley were awesome in '92-'93. The Sonics of GP and Kemp were right there with the record-setting Bulls during the regular season. And the two Jazz teams were led by Malone and Stockton.... 'nuff said. None of these teams pushed the Bulls to even a Game 7.
IMO, and again, I didn't see Oscar or West or Pete, or Wilt, or Russell play, but I think LeBron is the most TALENTED player ever. At 6'8", he is Karl Malone with Magic's game. That is a freak of nature. But he is not the GOAT.
That is it in a nutshell. Lebron is arguably the most talented player ever but not the best player ever. That's what I think people get confused. I don't know anyone who will deny Lebron's abilities. He can do almost anything but the fact remains that despite talent, you still have to put it all together on the court and Lebron has still quite a bit of work to do there before he is considered the GOAT to me. I doubt he ever really gets there. The Finals against the Mavs and 2010 when his team lost to the Celtics in embarassing fashion was a huge indictment on his career. Those things make you question that mental part of his game that you talked about. Great post.
I don't think getting to the 2007 Finals helps Lebron's legacy. The East was horrible. It wasn't much of an accomplishment especially since they got swept. I think beating the Warriors this year would mean way more for his legacy than anything. It's hard to say what MJ or Kobe would have done in a similar circumstance.
Maybe, maybe not, but it shouldn't hurt it. Kobe won one playoff game the same year, and got blown once in that series as well. The fact is, Kobe always had some good/great teammates when he was successful. In the Shaq years, obviously, and then with Gasol and Bynum later on. In fact, had Artest not bailed him out in game 7, Kobe would have lost to Boston twice. MJ had plenty of quality teammates to turn to, too.
Maybe, maybe not, but it shouldn't hurt it. Kobe won one playoff game the same year, and got blown once in that series as well. The fact is, Kobe always had some good/great teammates when he was successful. In the Shaq years, obviously, and then with Gasol and Bynum later on. In fact, had Artest not bailed him out in game 7, Kobe would have lost to Boston twice. MJ had plenty of quality teammates to turn to, too.
Okay I keep hearing people make this same argument about teammates, but why is that brought up as an argument when Lebron played with Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh and Ray Allen?
Because you need teammates to win. He won titles with quality teammates, just like Kobe, MJ, and everyone else.
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