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lifetime points lol. That sorta ignores the fact that Lebron has played an extra FOUR seasons. If Bird is 19 years old in Lebron's era, he leaves college after his freshman season where he averaged a ridiculous 33ppg/13rpg/4apg (or skips college all together).
but you're talking about if if and if, im just discussing what actually happened. the best ability is AVAILability, and the guy who plays is infinitely more valuable than the guy who doesn't.
what you're doing is giving credit to a guy for what he might have done had he played, that's just guesswork.
That was an absurd comment regarding lifetime points.
your comment is even more absurd to ignore points. the goal is to throw the ball into the basket, the guy who does that more times is better and the guy who does that many more times is much better. now, if you want to make a case or debate on the reason the guy who scores LESS points is actually better at basketball, be my guest.
there's not one thing larry bird is better at than lebron, they're not even in the same universe as far as talent goes.
get back to me in 10 years and we will compare all the advanced metrics you want, we will compare titles, points scored, defensive stats, rebounds, etc lets compare every stat and you can do it moneyball style and lets see who was the better player for their careers, and no, we don't do yearly averages, we compile, if you're talking about all time great pantheon players, you can't say gee if the guy didn't get hurt....if you get hurt or lose your effectiveness, you're not as good as a guy who stays healthy for a long career with all else being equal, its not rocket science.
but you're talking about if if and if, im just discussing what actually happened. the best ability is AVAILability, and the guy who plays is infinitely more valuable than the guy who doesn't.
what you're doing is giving credit to a guy for what he might have done had he played, that's just guesswork.
How many players went from high school to pros in the late 70s? ZERO. Between 1976 and 1994 ZERO high school players were drafted. Face it, when it comes to career totals, players during the prep to pro era (1995-2005) or one and done era (2006-now) are going to have an advantage on players that played in eras where everyone played in college 2-4 years (~90% of lotto picks were college seniors prior to the mid 90s). It's silly to compare cumulative point totals.
Last edited by eddiehaskell; 07-02-2016 at 10:39 PM..
How many players went from high school to pros in the late 70s? ZERO. Between 1976 and 1994 ZERO high school players were drafted. Face it, when it comes to career totals, players during the prep to pro era (1995-2005) or one and done era (2006-now) are going to have an advantage on players that played in eras where everyone played in college 2-4 years (~90% of lotto picks were college seniors prior to the mid 90s). It's silly to compare cumulative point totals.
No, you old-school Homer's are the ones being silly. This is as apples to apples as it gets--both have played for 13 seasons. When they came out is irrelevant, not to mention that Lebron has played in a league withis more teams, greater parity, better competition. This is a right now comparison. Apples to apples:
Seasons: James 13, Bird 13 Games: James 987, Bird 897 Playoff Seasons: James 11, Bird 12 Playoff Games: James 199, Bird 164
Bird played 94 collegiate games. Lebron has played 125 more professional games. That means Lebron has still played a net of 31 more basketball games than Bird did, at ages 18+ for both of them. You can call it however you wanna call it. Lebron has proven more durable in a league of increased competition. Lebron has played in more Finals than Bird, in a league with more teams, while making one fewer playoff appearance. At this stage of his career, the chief reason Lebron is the better player is because Lebron's sustained production and longevity outlasts Bird. Lebron's prime has been longer. We were all wrong to suggest he hasn't been in his prime anymore. He just took the last two regular seasons easy, but boy did he return this postseason to peak form!
I'll give you that Bird was the greatest SF of his day. I'll even say Bird was a purer scorer and better shooter. That's it. Lebron's defensive intensity is greater, he's a more dominant on- and off-ball defender. He's faster than Bird, has better court vision and presence, Lebron's a sharper passer. Lebron's career rebounding is lower in both playoff and regular season, but anybody whose watched Lebron play, do you seriously believe Bird is a better rebounder? Seriously?
And while not a better "pure" scorer, Lebron is equally as dominant a scorer. In case you don't know what that means, what I'm saying is if Lebron has the ball in his hands and he wants to be a scorer, who stops him? Literally, look at Lebron's entire career---when he wants to go for 40, who stops him? Not a soul, so he's as dominant a scorer as anybody (like Bird) who were scorers first...
Lebron's biggest gift is he isn't a score-first guy, but is a guy who could have made a career of Michael Jordan scoring numbers if he wanted to...
MVPs: James 4, Bird 3 Rings: James 3, Bird 3 Finals: James 7, Bird 5 Finals MVPs: James 3, Bird 2 All-NBA (First Team): James 12(10), Bird 10(9) All-Defense (First Team): James 6(5), Bird 3
Both were ROYs. What more apples to apples do you want?
How many players went from high school to pros in the late 70s? ZERO. Between 1976 and 1994 ZERO high school players were drafted. Face it, when it comes to career totals, players during the prep to pro era (1995-2005) or one and done era (2006-now) are going to have an advantage on players that played in eras where everyone played in college 2-4 years (~90% of lotto picks were college seniors prior to the mid 90s). It's silly to compare cumulative point totals.
Darryl Dawkins and Bill Willoughby both went straight out of high school and into the nba in 1975.
No, you old-school Homer's are the ones being silly. This is as apples to apples as it gets--both have played for 13 seasons. When they came out is irrelevant, not to mention that Lebron has played in a league withis more teams, greater parity, better competition. This is a right now comparison. Apples to apples:
Seasons: James 13, Bird 13 Games: James 987, Bird 897 Playoff Seasons: James 11, Bird 12 Playoff Games: James 199, Bird 164
Bird played 94 collegiate games. Lebron has played 125 more professional games. That means Lebron has still played a net of 31 more basketball games than Bird did, at ages 18+ for both of them. You can call it however you wanna call it. Lebron has proven more durable in a league of increased competition. Lebron has played in more Finals than Bird, in a league with more teams, while making one fewer playoff appearance. At this stage of his career, the chief reason Lebron is the better player is because Lebron's sustained production and longevity outlasts Bird. Lebron's prime has been longer. We were all wrong to suggest he hasn't been in his prime anymore. He just took the last two regular seasons easy, but boy did he return this postseason to peak form!
I'll give you that Bird was the greatest SF of his day. I'll even say Bird was a purer scorer and better shooter. That's it. Lebron's defensive intensity is greater, he's a more dominant on- and off-ball defender. He's faster than Bird, has better court vision and presence, Lebron's a sharper passer. Lebron's career rebounding is lower in both playoff and regular season, but anybody whose watched Lebron play, do you seriously believe Bird is a better rebounder? Seriously?
And while not a better "pure" scorer, Lebron is equally as dominant a scorer. In case you don't know what that means, what I'm saying is if Lebron has the ball in his hands and he wants to be a scorer, who stops him? Literally, look at Lebron's entire career---when he wants to go for 40, who stops him? Not a soul, so he's as dominant a scorer as anybody (like Bird) who were scorers first...
Lebron's biggest gift is he isn't a score-first guy, but is a guy who could have made a career of Michael Jordan scoring numbers if he wanted to...
MVPs: James 4, Bird 3 Rings: James 3, Bird 3 Finals: James 7, Bird 5 Finals MVPs: James 3, Bird 2 All-NBA (First Team): James 12(10), Bird 10(9) All-Defense (First Team): James 6(5), Bird 3
Both were ROYs. What more apples to apples do you want?
"Old school homers" - you lost the debate on your opening line if you think I'm old enough to be "old school". I couldn't care less about making any particular era look better.
How does more teams = greater competition? If the NBA had 100 teams would that make things more competitive? Fact is, the 80s is arguably the most competitive era in NBA history. There were 23 teams during Birds prime compared to 29 during Lebron's era. Less teams = less diluted talent.
Your "13 season" comparison is absurd at best. Bird was 35 freaking years old in his 13th season. A better comparison would simply be comparing them at the same ages. In this case, we'll start at Bird's rookie season so 23-31 years old:
Yes, Lebron has 1 more MVP, but let's dig a little deeper....
From 23-31 years old, Bird won 3 MVPs, finished 2nd 4x, 3rd 1x, and 4th 1x. For an 8 year stretch Bird was 1st or 2nd in MVP voting 7x. That's incredible.
Let's also not forget that his biggest challenger for MVP was arguably a top 5 all time player in Magic Johnson who was also in his prime. Bird wins the '88 MVP if not for a guy by the name of Michael Jordan. In '87 Bird finished 3rd behind TWO top 5 players...Magic AND Jordan. Has Lebron battled for accolades against multiple top 5 all time players in their primes? Of course not. Speaking of Magic, Bird's Celtics had to face perhaps the best dynasty of all time in the Showtime Lakers 3x during Bird's prime. All of Lebron's championships came after some of the 2000s greats were over the hill (Kobe/Duncan/Shaq/KG). Imagine Lebron having to compete against say MJ his entire career - would MVPs and championships be harder to come by? You betcha.
Semantics, on the dates, way to pick and choose to fit your argument.
Dawkins was drafted by the 76ers who have never been an ABA team.
LOL - 2 or 3 guys are drafted from high school in 30+ years and I'm picking and choosing to fit an argument?!? Face it, basketball players went to college in Bird's era - typically for 4 years. Anyone that disputes that is mentally unstable.
BTW - I was thinking Moses Malone as being drafted by the ABA.
"Old school homers" - you lost the debate on your opening line if you think I'm old enough to be "old school". I couldn't care less about making any particular era look better.
How does more teams = greater competition? If the NBA had 100 teams would that make things more competitive? Fact is, the 80s is arguably the most competitive era in NBA history. There were 23 teams during Birds prime compared to 29 during Lebron's era. Less teams = less diluted talent.
Your "13 season" comparison is absurd at best. Bird was 35 freaking years old in his 13th season. A better comparison would simply be comparing them at the same ages. In this case, we'll start at Bird's rookie season so 23-31 years old:
Yes, Lebron has 1 more MVP, but let's dig a little deeper....
From 23-31 years old, Bird won 3 MVPs, finished 2nd 4x, 3rd 1x, and 4th 1x. For an 8 year stretch Bird was 1st or 2nd in MVP voting 7x. That's incredible.
Let's also not forget that his biggest challenger for MVP was arguably a top 5 all time player in Magic Johnson who was also in his prime. Bird wins the '88 MVP if not for a guy by the name of Michael Jordan. In '87 Bird finished 3rd behind TWO top 5 players...Magic AND Jordan. Has Lebron battled for accolades against multiple top 5 all time players in their primes? Of course not. Speaking of Magic, Bird's Celtics had to face perhaps the best dynasty of all time in the Showtime Lakers 3x during Bird's prime. All of Lebron's championships came after some of the 2000s greats were over the hill (Kobe/Duncan/Shaq/KG). Imagine Lebron having to compete against say MJ his entire career - would MVPs and championships be harder to come by? You betcha.
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The Lebron apologists want dearly for Lebron to be vastly superior to Larry Bird, but he just isnt. They are more similar than different. Bird also being the better shooter, rebounder and passer (regardless of stat)
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