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Here's one more thing I'll say that no one has raised before: KD has become a better basketball player while Lebron has not.
I always said the one thing holding KD back from being a Top 10 player would be his decision-making/passing. Think back to that regular season OKC/GSW matchup where he threw a dumb pass that resulted in a TO and then fouled Iguodala at the end of regulation. As brilliant a scorer as he was, if you brought enough pressure on double teams, you could force him into making some really bad decisions. I believe he also had some costly TOs in Game 6 of the WCF, which the Warriors went on to win.
That KD appears to be gone. He was making some dumb mistakes in the beginning of the season, but he almost always makes the correct decision with the basketball now. He's excellent at finding the open man when the double team comes and he made some difficult, terrific passes during the Finals. The scary part is that he's still improving.
Now let's turn to Lebron. I love the guy. He's everything coaches tell you a player should be. However, I have not seen him improve any dimension of his game in any significant way, at least not in a way that's lasted. He became a very respectable mid range/post up shooter in Miami, but he's since regressed to rookie year levels. His offensive options today are (a) drive to the basket as hard as he can and finish or (b) shoot a 3 pointer. There's no guile or craftiness to his game at all despite having one of the highest basketball IQs ever.
So maybe Lebron needs to spend some time at his L.A. residence with Kobe and learn the art of the post game. That aspect of his game did improve a bit when he worked with Olajuwon, so maybe Kobe can help get it back on track.
I've mentioned on here many times I'm Cavs fan I think its great that Lebron is a Cav- if he left tomorrow- I'd be thankful for the championship, but I'm not hanging his poster on my wall or following the end of his career. I'd actually love nothing more than a Kyrie led team to win a title.
Now having said that I'm not a Lebron fanboy...but....
Lebron has his best (healthiest too) year since his return to Cleveland- shooting wise his numbers were better and he averaged more rebounds and assists per game than ANY year of his 14 year career. "There's no guile or craftiness to his game" I can't disagree more with this- he created all year for teammates. Granted he has a habit of bully ball and pulling up for three pointers, but I'd argue he's just as likely to penetrate and create and also finish off glass or floating away better than he ever has. He plays off the ball better than he has in the past- I've witnessed throughout the year timely cuts to the basket and either a strong finish or another dish off the cut. For the past 10 years I've wanted to see more of a post game, since his return its better but nowhere at a level you'd expect with his size- he passes very well out of that position though.
Honestly, losing in the Finals stinks, but I'm more upset the Cavs franchise wasted a year with his level of play.
I have to agree with everything you said about KD. He's become a better offensive player (at least from what I saw in the Finals) paired with Curry.
Last edited by eastcoastbias; 06-14-2017 at 01:39 PM..
On Melo, I'm not giving up any value for him. Value is any of the big 3. I don't know what will be available but if I need a creator on offense to at least matchup with a Warriors second unit- I'm considering Melo.
I'd love to add two way players but honestly they don't grow on trees and they don't come easy given the financial constraints and assets the Cavs have to work with.
Melo+a defender+a capable 5. With the big 3 in tact- That's three positive additions. Cavs need Lue, Thompson, Shumpert, JR to improve their games.
Here's one more thing I'll say that no one has raised before: KD has become a better basketball player while Lebron has not.
I always said the one thing holding KD back from being a Top 10 player would be his decision-making/passing. Think back to that regular season OKC/GSW matchup where he threw a dumb pass that resulted in a TO and then fouled Iguodala at the end of regulation. As brilliant a scorer as he was, if you brought enough pressure on double teams, you could force him into making some really bad decisions. I believe he also had some costly TOs in Game 6 of the WCF, which the Warriors went on to win.
That KD appears to be gone. He was making some dumb mistakes in the beginning of the season, but he almost always makes the correct decision with the basketball now. He's excellent at finding the open man when the double team comes and he made some difficult, terrific passes during the Finals. The scary part is that he's still improving.
Now let's turn to Lebron. I love the guy. He's everything coaches tell you a player should be. However, I have not seen him improve any dimension of his game in any significant way, at least not in a way that's lasted. He became a very respectable mid range/post up shooter in Miami, but he's since regressed to rookie year levels. His offensive options today are (a) drive to the basket as hard as he can and finish or (b) shoot a 3 pointer. There's no guile or craftiness to his game at all despite having one of the highest basketball IQs ever.
So maybe Lebron needs to spend some time at his L.A. residence with Kobe and learn the art of the post game. That aspect of his game did improve a bit when he worked with Olajuwon, so maybe Kobe can help get it back on track.
I am in partial agreement with you. KD is still young, and he is getting better. He also moved to a basketball environment far superior to the one he left. There was talent in OKC, but the BBIQ & teamwork shoot through the roof with the Warriors. You won't often find Warriors standing around and watching KD iso. They are still setting screens and moving off ball so that KD has options if the double team comes. He also doesn't face as many double teams because there are fewer Warriors that opponents can just leave unguarded.
There was a game in the 1st half of this season when KD brought the ball up in a late quarter situation and ISO'd at the top of the key for a contested shot with help defense at the end of the quarter. Seconds earlier, as KD approached half court, Curry was calling for the ball at the right wing to run a play for the last shot. When the quarter ended, Draymond Green got in KD's face like I've never seen a teammate get in a superstar's face. There's no question that the message was this: we play the right way and you are going to, too. KD is now surrounded by a team that is committed to being a great team, not a group of great individuals. He has bought in, and the way he played in the Finals is a glimmer of what we will see from this team as they grow together.
LeBron may have had his best season ever this year. He clearly doesn't have the same athleticism he had 5 years ago, but he is a smarter player than he was then, too. LBJ runs point, something KD will never do. They play fundamentally different roles. Size aside, it makes more sense to compare LBJ & Curry and Kyrie & Durant, as those are the matching roles on offense.
In his career, LBJ improved as a perimeter shooter, post-up player, and as an offense initiator/distributor. He's 33. You should not expect a 33 year old to continue improving. Compare LBJ today to a 26 year old LBJ at the end of the 1st Cleveland years, and you'll see a totally different (and inferior) player. What makes LeBron more special now is the way that he runs an offense and gets his teammates involved. He is more effective when he is directing traffic and dissecting a defense than he is when trying to score in an ISO post-up.
The 4th quarter of Game 5 gave us something we hadn't seen much yet. The Cavs repeatedly put LBJ in ISO situations and let him go to work. And he did, putting up points against one of the best wing defenders in the NBA, regardless of help from KD & Draymond. The Warriors repeatedly went to a Curry-KD pick & roll. The Cavs threw several different defensive looks at this, but KD & Curry decimated every single one, with Curry getting layups, easy midrange looks & dunks for KD, and Dubs away from the play getting open dunks by cutting when the Cavs sent a 3rd defender. With the season on the line, both teams went to their stars and let them work. Neither defense could do anything about it in that burst.
Lebron has his best (healthiest too) year since his return to Cleveland- shooting wise his numbers were better and he averaged more rebounds and assists per game than ANY year of his 14 year career.
In this year's playoffs, Lebron shot 24% on mid-range jumpers. During his first championship playoff run in Miami, after spending a summer with The Dream, he shot 48%.
Lebron has always been a great all-around player, which again is something extolled by every coach in America from pee wee to Coach K. But there comes a point where a team needs scoring prowess and Lebron has not really improved in that area. When a double team would come against Kobe, he had the footwork to spin away from it, elevate and knock down the shot in a clutch situation. Lebron more often than not will pass when the double team comes. In theory, you should always hit the open man when the double team comes, but there comes a time in every hard-fought playoff series when you don't want Kyle Korver or D-Will taking the shot.
A lethal mid-range game would be a tool that would make him nearly unstoppable. As of now, his offensive repertoire is relatively limited. As defensive resolve stiffens late into the 4th quarter of playoff games, Kyrie is the go-to option, not Lebron, and that says a lot about his offensive game considering he's called one of the greatest players of all time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastcoastbias
"There's no guile or craftiness to his game" I can't disagree more with this- he created all year for teammates.
Creating for your teammates isn't the same thing as being a crafty scorer. Jason Kidd created for his teammates, but who would ever say he's as crafty a scorer as C.J. McCollum or Kyrie Irving?
He's 33. You should not expect a 33 year old to continue improving.
I don't expect a 33 year old to be get faster, stronger or more athletic. I *do* expect a 33 year old to add extra tools to the toolbelt whether that be a Dirk-style stepback, a Shaun Livingston fadeaway, an up and under move, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge
Compare LBJ today to a 26 year old LBJ at the end of the 1st Cleveland years, and you'll see a totally different (and inferior) player. What makes LeBron more special now is the way that he runs an offense and gets his teammates involved. He is more effective when he is directing traffic and dissecting a defense than he is when trying to score in an ISO post-up.
That's because Lebron has been in the NBA for 14 seasons and has a higher IQ. I'm not quite sure why an increased IQ and a more diverse offensive skillset are mutually exclusive, though. When Jordan returned to the game, he was a smarter player, but he also became a craftier player with better footwork and an even more lethal mid-range game. Lebron is just a smarter player.
It's definitely not true that Lebron's offense has regressed to rookie-year levels...and Kyrie is the go-to scoring option because Lebron allows him to be that. It's even arguable if Kyrie is the go-to scoring option, but that argument requires more depth than I'm gonna give in this particular response...
Lebron has been the go-to scoring option his entire career. It's worked out pretty well for the teams he's played for...
I don't understand this fascination with wanting Lebron to develop like Mike or Kobe. His game at no point in time, from high school on, has ever been modeled after or similar to theirs. Why would that change now?
Lebron had an excellent year this season. His game is maturing as he ages and I expect it to continue. I'd like to see him improve his post game as well---but it simply isn't true that he hasn't improved his game...
It's definitely not true that Lebron's offense has regressed to rookie-year levels...and Kyrie is the go-to scoring option because Lebron allows him to be that. It's even arguable if Kyrie is the go-to scoring option, but that argument requires more depth than I'm gonna give in this particular response...
Lebron has been the go-to scoring option his entire career. It's worked out pretty well for the teams he's played for...
I don't understand this fascination with wanting Lebron to develop like Mike or Kobe. His game at no point in time, from high school on, has ever been modeled after or similar to theirs. Why would that change now?
Lebron had an excellent year this season. His game is maturing as he ages and I expect it to continue. I'd like to see him improve his post game as well---but it simply isn't true that he hasn't improved his game...
Lebron needs to stop doing shooting those fade away jump shots in the 4th quarter which is not a shot the best player in the world should be taking late in the game.
Maybe, maybe not. But it's a team sport and the best team won.
He is the best player in the world and this series, but the Warriors were certainly the best team, no doubt. The Superteam was expected to prevail, so no surprise.
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