U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Basketball
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 06-11-2017, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Land of the Great Bears
3,482 posts, read 1,910,652 times
Reputation: 3792

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davy-040 View Post
Elgin Baylor, George Gervin, Patrick Ewing and Steve Nash should be on that list.
George Gervin! Loved that guy's game. He was similar to KD-so smooth.

 
Old 06-11-2017, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Land of the Great Bears
3,482 posts, read 1,910,652 times
Reputation: 3792
Manute with 4 blocks on one play! Rejecting Kareem and Mark Eaton is fairly elite territory.
 
Old 06-11-2017, 11:58 AM
 
11,679 posts, read 7,041,880 times
Reputation: 6387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Cleric View Post
Can't be touched. Hmmm. It's true that "hard" (flagrant) fouls and cheap shots off the ball were somewhat tolerated and much more prevalent then, but IMO tough, physical team defense is more common now.

Just watch video of playoffs and finals games from the 90's and compare it to what you're seeing today.

They're shooting more 3's today because so many players are now capable of making a decent percentage, thanks to better coaching and more practice dedicated to developing this skill.
Yet how many times do we see Lebron put his head down, get a step on his defender and finish at the rim (often uncontested)? Team defense can only do so much when players like Lebron and Jordan can attack the rim from beyond the 3pt line in just a few tenths of second. For that matter..how many times does Kyrie (30ppg in multiple finals now) get to the rim? Jordan is a better finisher/difficult shot maker than both. Jordan's body control in the air is unmatched...and he often needed it as there were multiple defenders around the rim.
 
Old 06-11-2017, 02:22 PM
 
1,564 posts, read 1,122,697 times
Reputation: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davy-040 View Post
Elgin Baylor, George Gervin, Patrick Ewing and Steve Nash should be on that list.
Your right about Elgin for sure !!

Idk about Steve Nash though.
 
Old 06-11-2017, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,209 posts, read 2,823,898 times
Reputation: 4497
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
Top 10 (a lot of thought given to this, so not completely confident):

Mike
Kareem
Lebron
Magic
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Oscar

Kobe and Hakeem are the only other two players that, as of right now, have a legitimate case as Top 10, but they're my 11-12.
So on further consideration, I'll revise my Top 10...

The Top 3 is set. That's three-quarters of Mount Rushmore and it's a hard argue to remove either of those guys. I do have a question for 4 and 5, and whether Magic was really better than Bird, and if so, then by how large of a margin? Can anybody who watched in the '80s tell me what was the opinion at the time--did people think Magic or Bird was better?

I will say that growing up I was always under that impression that Bird was the better player, but Magic was more decorated. I seem to be outnumbered when I review lists and listen to older people. At any rate, because it's hard for me to separate them, I have to keep them together, as they both ushered in The Golden Era...

6-10 is where my mess really is, because I'll be honest, I believe Kobe is a Top 10 player, but again, many people and publications disagree with me. My general hunch is that both Russell and Wilt belong lower than I initially ranked them (5 and 6). And I truly believe that at best, they are 6 and 7---at best. I'm not sure they can be considered Top 5 anymore, 44 years after Wilt retired. And if they can be, there would only be room for Wilt and he can't be higher than #5...

Let's be completely fair: everybody knows Wilt Chamberlain was a better player than Bill Russell. Any list that puts Russell over Wilt is doing so based on ring count and team success over Wilt's teams, but clearly Wilt was the best player of that day and was widely recognised as so. I'm not against separating he and Russell, though, because I'm not convinced that Russell was a better player than Duncan or Shaq. I am convinced that neither of those guys were quite as good as Wilt, though I think it was close...

If I put Kobe in the Top 10, Oscar would be the guy who gets bumped. So instead, I'll revise my list like this:

1. Jordan
2-3: Kareem or Lebron (interchangeable but Kareem probably has the edge at the moment)
4-5: Bird and Magic (interchangeable)
6: Wilt
7-9: Russell, Duncan, Shaq (interchangeable)
10-12: Kobe, Hakeem, Oscar (interchangeable)

One thing I can't reiterate enough: it's not 1985 anymore. Wilt and Russell are no longer Top 5 GOAT players. There has been 44 years of basketball since Wilt retired, 48 since Russell retired. That is a lot of basketball. They were the original GOAT's and deserve acknowledgement and praise for that, but better players have come along since their day. It's the nature of the game. We are close to seeing if LeBron can take MJ's throne; he's definitely challenging him, and if the consensus when Lebron retires is that he didn't quite get to Mike, someone at some point will come along who's better than both...
 
Old 06-11-2017, 11:01 PM
 
11,679 posts, read 7,041,880 times
Reputation: 6387
Why should players automatically be moved down because they played X number of years ago? Does that mean Jordan, Magic and Bird get moved down in another 10-15 years simply because their primes were in the 80s?

Why don't other sports follow the same principle? Sugar Ray Robinson and Joe Lewis wouldn't be in the top 20 at this point. What about baseball...Ruth, Mantle and Williams are still considered top 5 all time. Pretty sure Jim Brown is still considered top 1-3 in football.
 
Old 06-11-2017, 11:45 PM
 
Location: Land of the Great Bears
3,482 posts, read 1,910,652 times
Reputation: 3792
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
I'm not convinced that Russell was a better player than Duncan or Shaq. I am convinced that neither of those guys were quite as good as Wilt, though I think it was close...
Wilt played in a time when he could get away with being lazy on defense, jog slowly up the court, and generally not give it his all. He also had a very limited repertoire of offensive moves that would be easier to slow down in latter decades.
In other words, Duncan and Shaq were better (IMO). However, I think it's pretty clear that Wilt had incredible athletic ability that would enable him to dominate in other eras too, if he'd been born into them.
Russell? I don't think so. The rest of the greats way back when? Hard to say, but Wilt and Oscar Robertson are the only ones from the early era that make it for me.

Bryant definitely belongs in top 10 because he's the only other guy I've seen who has matched Jordan's combination of athleticism and skill. Actually, I think that the clip of his 50 greatest plays outshines Jordan's. One thing you notice is that he's typically defended better on his jump shots in the highlights than Jordan was.

Barkley once said that Olajuwon was the only guy he'd seen who could dominate both ends of the court. I agree, and he's gotta be on my list.

Kareem, Magic, Bird, LeBron, Shaq and one more guard would round it out. Nash or Stockton? Not sure.

Oh, and #1 is Jordan, for some obvious reasons, but also because it seems to me that his play revolutionized the game.
 
Old 06-12-2017, 12:18 AM
 
11,679 posts, read 7,041,880 times
Reputation: 6387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Cleric View Post
Wilt played in a time when he could get away with being lazy on defense, jog slowly up the court, and generally not give it his all. He also had a very limited repertoire of offensive moves that would be easier to slow down in latter decades.
In other words, Duncan and Shaq were better (IMO). However, I think it's pretty clear that Wilt had incredible athletic ability that would enable him to dominate in other eras too, if he'd been born into them.
Russell? I don't think so. The rest of the greats way back when? Hard to say, but Wilt and Oscar Robertson are the only ones from the early era that make it for me.

Bryant definitely belongs in top 10 because he's the only other guy I've seen who has matched Jordan's combination of athleticism and skill. Actually, I think that the clip of his 50 greatest plays outshines Jordan's. One thing you notice is that he's typically defended better on his jump shots in the highlights than Jordan was.

Barkley once said that Olajuwon was the only guy he'd seen who could dominate both ends of the court. I agree, and he's gotta be on my list.

Kareem, Magic, Bird, LeBron, Shaq and one more guard would round it out. Nash or Stockton? Not sure.

Oh, and #1 is Jordan, for some obvious reasons, but also because it seems to me that his play revolutionized the game.
Wilt played against MVP Kareem in '71 and pretty much matched his numbers at 34 years old. And that was despite having knee surgery the year before. Here are the games:

2. Date: Fri 11/20/70
– Chamberlain 28 pts, 23 rebs, 3 as, 10 blocks, 7-20 FG/FGA – 6 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 13 rebs, 0 as, 2 blocks, 13-32 FG/FGA W
3. Date: Mon 12/21/70
– Chamberlain 25 pts, 14 rebs, 3 as, 2 blocks, 11-23 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 16 rebs, 0 as, 4 blocks, 17-33 FG/FGA W
4. Date: Fri 02/05/71
– Chamberlain 14 pts, 14 rebs, 3 as, 6 blocks, 7-10 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 27 pts, 10 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA L
5. Date: Thu 02/11/71
– Chamberlain 25 pts, 11 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 21 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 13-30 FG/FGA – 2 blocks against Wilt W
6. Date: Wed 03/03/71
– Chamberlain 24 pts, 13 rebs, 5 as, 8 blocks, 7-15 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 15 pts, 6 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-21 FG/FGA W

Post season – 1970-71 – WCF playoffs
7. Date: Fri 04/09/71
– Chamberlain 22 pts, 20 rebs, 1 as, 8 blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA – 3 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 32 pts, 22 rebs, 1 as, 1 blocks, 14-30 FG/FGA W
8. Date: Sun 04/11/71
– Chamberlain 26 pts, 22 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA – Wilt blocked numerious shots L
-Abdul-Jabbar 22 pts, 10 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W
9. Date: Wed 04/14/71
– Chamberlain 24 pts, 24 rebs, 3 as, 3 blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 19 rebs, 6 as, 0 blocks, 8-16 FG/FGA L
10.Date: Fri 04/16/71
– Chamberlain 15 pts, 16 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-14 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 20 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 14-20 FG/FGA W
11.Date: Sun 04/18/71
– Chamberlain 23 pts, 12 rebs, 4 as, 6 blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA – 5 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 15 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 7-23 FG/FGA W

Wilt held MVP Kareem (GOAT level player playing at his best) to nearly 40% shooting at 34 years old on a bad knee.. Think about that! Wilt nearly matched Kareem's point production, out rebounded him, out blocked him and was more efficient.

So that begs the question - how freakin' good was Wilt playing at HIS best?

Last edited by eddiehaskell; 06-12-2017 at 12:34 AM..
 
Old 06-12-2017, 03:49 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,209 posts, read 2,823,898 times
Reputation: 4497
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Why should players automatically be moved down because they played X number of years ago?
Damn, man. Was I that difficult to understand?

I didn't say they get moved down because they played _____ years ago. I definitely said they get moved down because there are better players that have played since, presumably, they were considered 1-2 in 1970-ish. I used the years that have passed since they played to illustrate that it wouldn't be fair to the GOAT-level players that came after them to assume they still belong in the Top 5...

As an aside, Jim Brown played in an era that the NFL, as it is today and pretty much has always been, was much more competitive than the NBA, which makes the feats he accomplished more impressive than what Wilt (or Russell, or West, or Oscar) accomplished. There were routinely more teams to play against, the NFL was older and further along in its sophistication and maturation process. Football is my bread and butter, don't go down that road with me lol. Jim Brown was considered the best football player/best RB for years, and while he's still in the convo today, it's no longer a foregone conclusion that he's #1 ever and has been debatable for some time now, probably at least 15 years....he still is considered the #1 back to many, though not by the landslide he was in the 20th century. Still, his achievements are going to ring louder than anybody from his era, besides maybe Ali---Jim Brown was the greatest athlete of his era and did it against stiffer competition than anybody from any other sport faced at the time...

Baseball was extraordinarily top-heavy during that period, the most racist of all the racist Big Leagues, and had less parity than even the NBA. Not a good argument--Ruth and Mantle are still considered Top 5 and Williams Top 10 but as in the other sports, it is no longer a foregone conclusion that we ASSUME they were the greatest players ever. This is just the natural evolution of sports--great players have come along since and an assumption of them as Top 3 is a discredit to the GOAT's that have played in the 50-60+ years since those guys...

Each era (meaning decade) has to re-evaluate the best players ever in each sport. It just has to happen, and it does. A decade ago in June 2007 Manning had just won his first ring and Brady hasn't yet had The Almost Perfect Year. Neither player had even played a decade yet and were anywhere near as accomplished as Montana, Favre, Young, Kelly, Unitas. Lebron had only finished Year 4 and had nothing to put him in even a Top 40, and Kobe was an 11-year vet but was yet to win either an MVP or a ring without Shaq...

The point is times change and new greats are added every decade, and the historic GOAT's have to be weighed against them just as it is the other way around. To not do so would be an injustice to the younger players...
 
Old 06-12-2017, 04:48 AM
 
11,679 posts, read 7,041,880 times
Reputation: 6387
^ But you happily include Kareem as is the trend and Wilt gets thrown out despite getting the best of MVP Kareem at 34 on bad knees? Wilt also got the better of the top centers that both of them faced.

This is something I think comes down to recency bias. Wilt has been dead almost 20 years so we of course don't hear from him, we have very little video footage and the players/fans that played with/watched him during his prime are dying out. Therefore we mostly have crazy stats and stories.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Basketball
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top