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Old 06-12-2017, 04:57 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,211 posts, read 2,831,702 times
Reputation: 4502

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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
^ But you happily include Kareem as is the trend and Wilt gets thrown out despite getting the best of MVP Kareem at 34 on bad knees? Wilt also got the better of the top centers that both of them faced.

This is something I think comes down to recency bias. Wilt has been dead almost 20 years so we of course don't hear from him, we have very little video footage and the players/fans that played with/watched him during his prime are dying out. Therefore we mostly have crazy stats and stories.
The argument of Wilt being better than Kareem has credence only when saying Wilt was a slightly better player over a young Kareem...

Kareem beat any meaningful record Wilt held, won more championships, won more MVPs, played six years longer than Wilt, and dominated a more competitive league--so Kareem's achievements were more impressive...

Is this recency bias? Maybe, but what's more impressive and deserves more praise--scoring 100 and averaging 30/25 in an 8-10 team league on guys mostly shorter than 6'3, or winning six MVPs, 6 championships and going on a 15-year run of dominance in a league with twice the number of teams with more athletic and larger players?

 
Old 06-12-2017, 06:01 AM
 
11,679 posts, read 7,048,359 times
Reputation: 6387
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
The argument of Wilt being better than Kareem has credence only when saying Wilt was a slightly better player over a young Kareem...

Kareem beat any meaningful record Wilt held, won more championships, won more MVPs, played six years longer than Wilt, and dominated a more competitive league--so Kareem's achievements were more impressive...

Is this recency bias? Maybe, but what's more impressive and deserves more praise--scoring 100 and averaging 30/25 in an 8-10 team league on guys mostly shorter than 6'3, or winning six MVPs, 6 championships and going on a 15-year run of dominance in a league with twice the number of teams with more athletic and larger players?
Young Kareem? Kareem was the MVP in '71 averaging 31/16. His two best seasons came at age 23 and 24. Wilt outplaying him at 34 on a 1970s surgically repaired knee speaks volumes. And yeah, Kareem won more championships once he was paired with a guy named Magic who is arguably a GOAT candidate in his own right. Funny how people gladly give Magic and Kareem an equal share of each ring yet Shaq gets credit for the rings won with Kobe.

Oh, and Lebron fans seem to think he ran into a juggernaut in the Warriors...well Wilt continually ran this team you may have heard of called the Boston Celtics, LOL. Imagine the current Warriors running at full strength from the time Lebron gets in the league until now...how many rings does Lebron have? I will be generous and say he gets 1 in 2012. Where do you then rank Lebron who is exactly the same player? Top 20?
 
Old 06-12-2017, 07:46 AM
 
1,564 posts, read 1,124,286 times
Reputation: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Young Kareem? Kareem was the MVP in '71 averaging 31/16. His two best seasons came at age 23 and 24. Wilt outplaying him at 34 on a 1970s surgically repaired knee speaks volumes. And yeah, Kareem won more championships once he was paired with a guy named Magic who is arguably a GOAT candidate in his own right. Funny how people gladly give Magic and Kareem an equal share of each ring yet Shaq gets credit for the rings won with Kobe.

Oh, and Lebron fans seem to think he ran into a juggernaut in the Warriors...well Wilt continually ran this team you may have heard of called the Boston Celtics, LOL. Imagine the current Warriors running at full strength from the time Lebron gets in the league until now...how many rings does Lebron have? I will be generous and say he gets 1 in 2012. Where do you then rank Lebron who is exactly the same player? Top 20?
Standing ovation !!!
 
Old 06-12-2017, 08:09 AM
 
1,742 posts, read 5,001,193 times
Reputation: 714
Wilt did disappear some, but if he had some more team around him or hell Oscar in the 60s, the ring count could've been quite different. Wilt was an insane athlete and put up even more insane numbers. There's definitely something to longevity, but there were points in time where you can't deny the feats of guys like Wilt, Jordan, Kobe, and Shaq.
 
Old 06-12-2017, 08:32 AM
 
149 posts, read 63,834 times
Reputation: 84
Maybe we should rank the Goats of each era
 
Old 06-12-2017, 09:50 AM
 
1,742 posts, read 5,001,193 times
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I'd say Wilt-Kareem-Magic-Jordan-Shaq-Kobe-Lebron as far as eras.
 
Old 06-12-2017, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
10,424 posts, read 12,422,095 times
Reputation: 4857
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Continental View Post
I'd say Wilt-Kareem-Magic-Jordan-Shaq-Kobe-Lebron as far as eras.
What about the 50's? Bill Russell?
 
Old 06-12-2017, 10:42 AM
 
16,527 posts, read 20,977,867 times
Reputation: 47975
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Continental View Post
Wilt did disappear some, but if he had some more team around him or hell Oscar in the 60s, the ring count could've been quite different. Wilt was an insane athlete and put up even more insane numbers. There's definitely something to longevity, but there were points in time where you can't deny the feats of guys like Wilt, Jordan, Kobe, and Shaq.
Agreed.

Here are 10 reasons why Bill Russell has all those championship rings. A supporting cast and a half in the era he played.

Bob Cousy
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
Tom Heinson
Tom "Satch" Sanders
Bailey Howell
Frank Ramsey
Bill Sharman
John Havlicek
Red Auerbach-coach

The above Celtics are NBA Hall Of Famers.
 
Old 06-12-2017, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,211 posts, read 2,831,702 times
Reputation: 4502
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Young Kareem? Kareem was the MVP in '71 averaging 31/16. His two best seasons came at age 23 and 24. Wilt outplaying him at 34 on a 1970s surgically repaired knee speaks volumes. And yeah, Kareem won more championships once he was paired with a guy named Magic who is arguably a GOAT candidate in his own right. Funny how people gladly give Magic and Kareem an equal share of each ring yet Shaq gets credit for the rings won with Kobe.

Oh, and Lebron fans seem to think he ran into a juggernaut in the Warriors...well Wilt continually ran this team you may have heard of called the Boston Celtics, LOL. Imagine the current Warriors running at full strength from the time Lebron gets in the league until now...how many rings does Lebron have? I will be generous and say he gets 1 in 2012. Where do you then rank Lebron who is exactly the same player? Top 20?
Damn, I did not realize Kareem peaked so early in his career. It really causes a re-evaluation of his status as a player. I do think it says something that he he played elite level ball for so long...his four best seasons were all with the Bucks. He was also only better than Magic in the first two years (79-80, 80-81). Magic was the #1 Kareem's final 8 seasons, looking at the advanced metrics of both....

Damn! Serious re-evaluation. I've slightly overrated Kareem and I've been listening to Isaiah Thomas (the real one) too much. Magic and Kareem won 5 titles together--Kareem was Finals MVP twice, Magic thrice. Kareem won 6 titles and only won Finals MVP twice. There isn't an 8-year stretch in either Jordan or Lebron's careers where anybody was a better player than them--those two have been the best players on every single team they played on. Wow...

It gives a larger weight to Wilt outplaying a peak Kareem. It also gives affirmation to why some lists rate Magic over Kareem, and why Kareem is sometimes ranked as low as 5. I get it now; I stand corrected!

Kareem and Magic don't get equal share in my mind anymore, because Magic was the #1 on 4 of their 5 championships....

If this Warriors juggernaut existed for a decade of Lebron's career...this depends on how you view this Warriors squad. I'm on record, several times, as stating my belief this unit has 2 more chips in them. Including this season (or not). I could be massively wrpng, but I don't see this 3, 4, 5x championship run everybody else does...

So, because that's how I view the Warriors, and because in this age no roster is going 11/13 period, I'll take the over and say Lebron would still have won more than one title. But yes, theoretically, with only one chip his All-Time status would be greatly affected and he's probably be somewhere between 15-20...
 
Old 06-12-2017, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Austell, Georgia
2,145 posts, read 3,034,383 times
Reputation: 2011
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Kobe
4. Lebron
5. Bird
6. Magic
7. Bill Russell
8. Tim Duncan
9. Shaq
10. Wilt
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