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Old 08-01-2017, 06:59 PM
 
Location: So California
8,548 posts, read 8,884,653 times
Reputation: 4641

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCkidd View Post
Garnett is better than Dirk because of defense.

Dominique Wilkins over Pippen.

And Wade over Isiah Thomas*


KG was a better defender, but it didn't matter. He couldn't stop Dirk when they played head to head and they were not equal on offense. Dirk was way way better as an offensive player and team member. He had a way of lifting his teams. He also lead his team to a title where KG was not the best Celtic when they won, but was a key part of their big 3.

 
Old 08-01-2017, 07:52 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,201,268 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by slo1318 View Post
KG was a better defender, but it didn't matter. He couldn't stop Dirk when they played head to head and they were not equal on offense. Dirk was way way better as an offensive player and team member. He had a way of lifting his teams. He also lead his team to a title where KG was not the best Celtic when they won, but was a key part of their big 3.
The head to head numbers don't agree.

Kg and dirk averaged almost exactly the same ppg head to head, but kg shot higher by 6 %, rebounded by almost 4 rpg, more than double assists, steals and blocks.

Dirk played slightly more minutes and shot slightly better FT%, and turned the ball over less.

Kg head to head is a no brainer better pick

https://www.basketball-reference.com....fcgi?id=o7rkA
 
Old 08-01-2017, 08:08 PM
 
1,564 posts, read 1,125,465 times
Reputation: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Facts Kill Rhetoric View Post
To those that question the greatness of LeBron James, realize that when you look at LeBron's career arc and reflect on it, to look at those that have greatly benefitted from playing with him.

This is best highlighted by Howard Beck, probably one of the most well respected and among the absolute best NBA writers that there is:

You know, everything that Howard Beck wrote about LeBron in the above quote is absolutely true. His ability to clearly elevate his teammates and for them to benefit by way of LeBron is a special attribute that other Superstars in the NBA today don't have. A very rare few in all of NBA history can claim that. Compare, say, Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard, or Anthony Davis to that, they fall short. Whose career has benefitted by Kevin Durant's presence? Kawhi's? Anthony Davis'? Exactly.

So when gauging the greatness of LeBron, he has all the personal accolades but its the intangibles that cannot be measured and his impact on those around him in the locker room that make his greatness far more profound. Every word in Howard's statement is absolutely true about LeBron.

How many other people in NBA history could you say that about? 2 max? 3 max?
So Magic didn't make his teammates better ? Probably the greatest player in history who made players better than anyone else.

Kobe didn't turn Ariza,Gasol,Bynum,Sasha into champions ?

Curry is like the new Magic.Anyway i say let LeBron retire first before his true all time ranking. He's probably the only one in your top 10 with a well below .500 finals record.

Now if this was based on talent & potential than LeBron is probably ranked over everyone except Wilt.But it's a disrepect to the game to rank him over players that led their teams to more title's in the finals.

Hell Kareem is arguably the greatest himself.
 
Old 08-01-2017, 08:27 PM
 
149 posts, read 63,948 times
Reputation: 84
The top 5 is locked forever in my opinion.

Mike = Greatest player ever,no need to explain.

Kareem = Most unstoppable shot ever + Nba all time scorer

Magic = 6'9 point guard that won a title as a rookie

Bill Russell = Greatest leader + winner ever

Chamberlain = Holds the most nba records in history

Those 5 are the epitome of greatness.Each of those players have a strong case as the best of all time.

Unless a player comes along and wins 7 straight titles than that top 5 is forever secure.
 
Old 08-02-2017, 10:17 AM
 
167 posts, read 76,119 times
Reputation: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
The head to head numbers don't agree.

Kg and dirk averaged almost exactly the same ppg head to head, but kg shot higher by 6 %, rebounded by almost 4 rpg, more than double assists, steals and blocks.

Dirk played slightly more minutes and shot slightly better FT%, and turned the ball over less.

Kg head to head is a no brainer better pick

https://www.basketball-reference.com....fcgi?id=o7rkA
there was one playoff series when Dirk owned KG. Dirk was still a baby at that point.

it would be interesting to see these stats game by game, or to somehow remove games when players were young / old, to see how they played when they were both good.
but i don't know how to find that.
 
Old 08-02-2017, 11:21 AM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,201,268 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukcha View Post
there was one playoff series when Dirk owned KG. Dirk was still a baby at that point.

it would be interesting to see these stats game by game, or to somehow remove games when players were young / old, to see how they played when they were both good.
but i don't know how to find that.
There's a game by game in the link I shared

https://www.basketball-reference.com...hareTool#stats
 
Old 08-02-2017, 11:58 AM
 
167 posts, read 76,119 times
Reputation: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
There's a game by game in the link I shared

https://www.basketball-reference.com...hareTool#stats
nice. in the first link i couldn't see them.
 
Old 08-02-2017, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Tokyo, Japan
6,633 posts, read 8,331,995 times
Reputation: 7594
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe25 View Post
So Magic didn't make his teammates better ? Probably the greatest player in history who made players better than anyone else.
Did you see me ever say anything about Magic or that he didn't make his teammates better? Obviously Magic made his teammates better, I never said he didn't. I didn't say anything about the guy at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe25 View Post
Kobe didn't turn Ariza,Gasol,Bynum,Sasha into champions ?
I'm probably the biggest Kobe fan you'll ever meet but no, this is false. Kobe didn't make his teammates better, at least nowhere close to the same stratosphere as LeBron or Magic have been able to. You must be joking and I say this as the biggest Kobe fan you'd ever meet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe25 View Post
Curry is like the new Magic.
If by "Curry is like the new Magic" you really mean "Curry is nothing at all like Magic" then I agree completely. One is a pass-first point guard and the other is a score-first point guard. One was never a scoring threat in his entire career (Magic's career high was like 40-something points, didn't make it to the 50+ range) and the other is considered purely a scoring threat. One played both ends of the court and could slot into all 5 positions in basketball. The other cannot play anything other than point guard or an under-sized shooting guard simply because he's small.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe25 View Post
Anyway i say let LeBron retire first before his true all time ranking. He's probably the only one in your top 10 with a well below .500 finals record.
Yeah and he's also one of the only few in NBA history that's ever had to play against juggernaut teams in the Finals that are among the all-time best. Jordan never had to do that because he himself was on the team that was considered among the all-time best, his opponent never was on that high a level. The Utah Jazz, for example were an exemplary 68 win team, but they pale in comparison to all 3 of the Warriors teams LeBron's faced in the NBA Finals, as well as the 2014 Spurs.

Take that into account while you're at it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe25 View Post
Now if this was based on talent & potential than LeBron is probably ranked over everyone except Wilt.But it's a disrepect to the game to rank him over players that led their teams to more title's in the finals.
Yeah because LeBron's lacking here, right? There's more to a GOAT debate than counting rings, if it were simply that then Bill Russell is the GOAT and no one else comes close. Sure, some guys have more titles, Robert Horry has more than Michael Jordan and Steve Kerr has more than Moses Malone. I suppose you could say Horry > Jordan and Kerr > Malone too, right?

LeBron's 3X NBA Finals MVP and has won with both of the franchises he's played for. Gone to 8 NBA Finals, 4 apiece between the Cavaliers and Heat. On the Miami end, he's 2-2 in the Finals, it's the 1-3 in Cleveland that weighs on his legacy more than anything.

It's not just that either, the level of competition that LeBron's had to go up against in the NBA Finals is more gruesome than what Michael Jordan or Bill Russell ever had to face up against. Arguably more than what Magic and Kareem had to go up against too.

Did Kareem or Magic or Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain ever slay a 73-9 team? Has anyone other than LeBron ever actually slayed a 70+ win opponent before? Nope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe25 View Post
Hell Kareem is arguably the greatest himself.
I'm a Lakers fan and Kareem was exceptional, that's why he's in my Top 3.

The problem with Kareem was that he played Center and he was never a great facilitator, largely because that was out of position for him but also because he wasn't physically capable of the mobility it would take to be the floor general. Compare that to a guy like LeBron that can more or less do it all, everything a man can do on a basketball court, LeBron can do and often does in every game. Just remember that. This guy can drive down the full court, make the right passes, set his guys up, hit his own shots, generate an offense for himself and his teammates, can block, can force turnovers, can outlet pass, can score almost anyway, and is considered a triple-double threat every time he gets on the floor.

That all goes along with the fact that LeBron can play all 5 positions in the modern NBA at an All-Star level (including smallball Center) and guard all 5 positions as well. His versatility and durability make him unique. He's never had a major injury before, he's never missed a single playoff game before.

I'm not saying this dude is GOAT because that's Michael Jordan, but his versatility IMO is a superior trait to the more limited Kareem (again, not a facilitator, distributor, or dribble penetrator, lacked outside shooting range, lacked speed and quickness, less durable than LeBron, so on).

I'm not even a LeBron fan but you have to be able to recognize how great and talented he is. Again, he's not the GOAT but at this point in time, going into his 15th season, he's a lock for the Top 5, and most certainly a very strong candidate for #2 or #3. IMO he's going to retire #2 to Michael Jordan.

Last edited by Trafalgar Law; 08-02-2017 at 02:13 PM..
 
Old 08-02-2017, 02:07 PM
 
Location: So California
8,548 posts, read 8,884,653 times
Reputation: 4641
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
The head to head numbers don't agree.

Kg and dirk averaged almost exactly the same ppg head to head, but kg shot higher by 6 %, rebounded by almost 4 rpg, more than double assists, steals and blocks.

Dirk played slightly more minutes and shot slightly better FT%, and turned the ball over less.

Kg head to head is a no brainer better pick

https://www.basketball-reference.com....fcgi?id=o7rkA


Nice try rigas. You are mad because Dirk is a better offensive player than Garnett and Duncan

Here are the real numbers, the regular season numbers are close as you claimed. Dirks playoff head to head is far superior and his overall playoff stats blow away Garnetts. He's just flat better.

REGULAR SEASON HEAD-TO-HEAD
Points per game: Nowitzki 23.1, Garnett 22.7
Rebounds per game: Garnett 11.9, Nowitzki 8.3
Assists per game: Garnett 4.5, Nowitzki 2.1
Blocks per game: Garnett 1.2, Nowitzki 0.8
Steals per game: Garnett 1.3, Nowitzki 0.7
Field-goal percentage: Garnett .518, Nowitzki .468
3-point percentage: Nowitzki .397, Garnett .294
Wins: Nowitzki 19, Garnett 16


PLAYOFFS HEAD-TO-HEAD
Nowitzki 33.3pts 15.7rebs, Garnett 24.0pts 18rebs
Assists per game: Garnett 5.0, Nowitzki 3.7
Blocks per game: Garnett 1.7, Nowitzki 1.3
Steals per game: Nowitzki 3.0, Garnett 1.7
Field-goal percentage: Nowitzki .526, Garnett .429
3-point percentage: Nowitzki .727, Garnett .500
Wins: Nowitzki 3, Garnett 0
 
Old 08-02-2017, 02:33 PM
 
11,680 posts, read 7,054,084 times
Reputation: 6387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Facts Kill Rhetoric View Post
For Mo Williams, he only became an NBA All-Star in 2009 because the Cleveland Cavaliers went 66-16 during the regular season (one of the best regular season records ever), all largely attributed to LeBron but Williams was competent enough to be a decent #2. When your team has a record that strong, you tend to get into the All-Star Team because of it and the record was that strong only because of LeBron. We know how that exact same roster played out after LeBron left, they were a bottom 5 team in the NBA four years in a row. The Atlanta Hawks sent 4 NBA All-Stars to the All-Star Game in 2015, largely thanks to their team record (which ended up being 60-22 that season). Mo Williams was given an All-Star berth because he played with LeBron, who carried the Cavaliers to a 66 win season, one of the best regular season records in NBA history.

Bosh's career would have ended up like Chris Webber's. Lots of talent, plenty of All-Star bids, and a few playoff berths attributed to Bosh carrying the Raptors through the weak East. His resume got that "bonafide Hall-of-Famer" credentials when he went off to win two championships and went deep into the postseason four years in a row. He can thank LeBron for the ride there. Bosh is a great player and well deserving of the Hall-of-Fame (which isn't even that hard to get into) but his resume went a higher gear due to LeBron.

As for Dellavedova, he did more than just hustle. In half of those NBA Finals games Delly was the second best player on the Cavaliers overall, for both his offensive and defensive contributions. His offensive production was often a byproduct of a LeBron James set-up play. Delly can thank LeBron for taking him far enough to where the world can see his so called hustle. He wouldn't have reached that platform on his own.

Not trying to say LeBron is some kind of deity or something in the NBA, just saying that his influence is profound and reverberates across the league in a way few player in NBA history have. For example, Tristan Thompson is complete and utter trash, but he's trash making $80 million dollars. He can thank LeBron for that, Klutch Sports and LeBron's confidence in Tristan to the Cavaliers front office. Literally Tristan makes the kind of bank that he does because of LeBron.
No doubt team success helped Mo Williams. He was a fringe all star for about 3 years and playing on a good team was just enough to put him over the top for a season.

Bosh has rings, but those rings certainly don't carry that much weight playing as a 3rd fiddle. I'll sorta be surprised if he makes the HOF. He made 1 all-NBA team.

I agree about Lebron helping put Delly on a national stage. But heck, he averaged 7.5 ppg in the 2015 finals and barely played in the 2016 finals. It's not like Lebron had the guy balling out there.
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