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Old 08-02-2017, 02:39 PM
 
11,679 posts, read 7,050,301 times
Reputation: 6387

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCkidd View Post
The top 5 is locked forever in my opinion.

Mike = Greatest player ever,no need to explain.

Kareem = Most unstoppable shot ever + Nba all time scorer

Magic = 6'9 point guard that won a title as a rookie

Bill Russell = Greatest leader + winner ever

Chamberlain = Holds the most nba records in history

Those 5 are the epitome of greatness.Each of those players have a strong case as the best of all time.

Unless a player comes along and wins 7 straight titles than that top 5 is forever secure.
I can see someone having those 5 locking down the top 5 spots unless a player does something crazy...for example Lebron going wild and leading a team to 2-3 more titles.

 
Old 08-02-2017, 02:58 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,198,412 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by slo1318 View Post
Nice try rigas. You are mad because Dirk is a better offensive player than Garnett and Duncan

Here are the real numbers, the regular season numbers are close as you claimed. Dirks playoff head to head is far superior and his overall playoff stats blow away Garnetts. He's just flat better.

REGULAR SEASON HEAD-TO-HEAD
Points per game: Nowitzki 23.1, Garnett 22.7
Rebounds per game: Garnett 11.9, Nowitzki 8.3
Assists per game: Garnett 4.5, Nowitzki 2.1
Blocks per game: Garnett 1.2, Nowitzki 0.8
Steals per game: Garnett 1.3, Nowitzki 0.7
Field-goal percentage: Garnett .518, Nowitzki .468
3-point percentage: Nowitzki .397, Garnett .294
Wins: Nowitzki 19, Garnett 16


PLAYOFFS HEAD-TO-HEAD
Nowitzki 33.3pts 15.7rebs, Garnett 24.0pts 18rebs
Assists per game: Garnett 5.0, Nowitzki 3.7
Blocks per game: Garnett 1.7, Nowitzki 1.3
Steals per game: Nowitzki 3.0, Garnett 1.7
Field-goal percentage: Nowitzki .526, Garnett .429
3-point percentage: Nowitzki .727, Garnett .500
Wins: Nowitzki 3, Garnett 0
the regular seasons are close as i claim? the regular season numbers are exactly as i "claimed" they are right there on basketball ref which was linked.

the 36 regular season games, averaged, garnett is CLEARLY the better player. dirk is about even with KG only looking at offense. they both average about the same amount, yet KG took less shots and made more. period.
he averaged 12 rebounds to 8, he averaged 4.4 assists to 2.1, he averaged 1.3 steals to .6, he averaged 1.2 blocks to .8.
he is better in every category except ppg, where he averaged about 1/2 a point less, and he turned the ball over a fair amount.

you havent figured out by now, i couldnt care less about dirks offense, the game is played at 2 ends of the floor.
dirk < KG < DUNCAN.

playoff head to head is a wasted comparison as they only played 3 games in the playoffs against each other.
lets look at supporting casts while we are at it.
KG has had a history of terrible supporting casts while in minny,
ranked by minutes played per game (only listing players averaging over 20 min)

kg
wally szczerbiak
terrell brandon
chauncey billups
rasho
joe smith
anthony peeler

micheal finley
dirk (yup, dirk didnt even lead his team in minutes)
steve nash
juwan Howard
raef lafrentz
nick van exel
adrian griffin
tim hardaway
eduardo najera
greg buckner

dirk had a lot more help.

Last edited by rigas; 08-02-2017 at 03:10 PM..
 
Old 08-02-2017, 08:02 PM
 
1,564 posts, read 1,124,658 times
Reputation: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by facts kill rhetoric View Post
did you see me ever say anything about magic or that he didn't make his teammates better? Obviously magic made his teammates better, i never said he didn't. I didn't say anything about the guy at all.

I'm probably the biggest kobe fan you'll ever meet but no, this is false. Kobe didn't make his teammates better, at least nowhere close to the same stratosphere as lebron or magic have been able to. You must be joking and i say this as the biggest kobe fan you'd ever meet.

So what kind of success did gasol and ariza have before playing with kobe ? Than again kobe and mike played in the triangle as shooting guards instead of facilitators.

If by "curry is like the new magic" you really mean "curry is nothing at all like magic" then i agree completely. One is a pass-first point guard and the other is a score-first point guard. One was never a scoring threat in his entire career (magic's career high was like 40-something points, didn't make it to the 50+ range) and the other is considered purely a scoring threat. One played both ends of the court and could slot into all 5 positions in basketball. The other cannot play anything other than point guard or an under-sized shooting guard simply because he's small.

Curry had the magic johnson effect on his teammates.

He demands so much attention that it freezes up the deefense.

Magic wasn't a great shooter but just him being on the court as the playmaker puts so much confidence in his teammates just like curry.

Look how durant played alongside steph.
9 years with westbrook and he couldnt win 1 title.but 1 year with steph and many are now calling kd the best player in the world over lebron.


Look how harrison barnes is doing in dallas now !!


Yeah and he's also one of the only few in nba history that's ever had to play against juggernaut teams in the finals that are among the all-time best. Jordan never had to do that because he himself was on the team that was considered among the all-time best, his opponent never was on that high a level. The utah jazz, for example were an exemplary 68 win team, but they pale in comparison to all 3 of the warriors teams lebron's faced in the nba finals, as well as the 2014 spurs.

You act like lebron teams are weak,he's the one that's been playing on handpicked superteams since 2011. All of a sudden the warriors are an all time team ? Where was this all time team in 2012,13 & 14 ? Curry,klay & draymond been together all that time so why weren't they a superteam than ? Oh that's right they came together through the draft and learned great team basketball like the spurs before them.

Take that into account while you're at it.

Yeah because lebron's lacking here, right? There's more to a goat debate than counting rings, if it were simply that then bill russell is the goat and no one else comes close. Sure, some guys have more titles, robert horry has more than michael jordan and steve kerr has more than moses malone. I suppose you could say horry > jordan and kerr > malone too, right?

Horry and kerr were role players lmao when we talk rings were talking about the leaders of the team. Curry x durant
kareem x magic
shaq x kobe not david west, derek fisher or horry lol

lebron's 3x nba finals mvp and has won with both of the franchises he's played for. Gone to 8 nba finals, 4 apiece between the cavaliers and heat. On the miami end, he's 2-2 in the finals, it's the 1-3 in cleveland that weighs on his legacy more than anything.

Look lebron took the easy way out. I wonder how many malone or iverson would've won had they teamed up with other superstars in thier prime

it's not just that either, the level of competition that lebron's had to go up against in the nba finals is more gruesome than what michael jordan or bill russell ever had to face up against. Arguably more than what magic and kareem had to go up against too.

It's really the other way around.
Lebron should've won every finals he played in except 2007. Him,wade,bosh,ray allen are suppose to beat old man duncan and his spurs

lebron avg 16/17 ppg in the 2011 finals on a superteam.

He was supposed to kill that dallas team.

Prime jordan never avg such low numbers in the finals.

Did kareem or magic or bill russell or wilt chamberlain ever slay a 73-9 team? Has anyone other than lebron ever actually slayed a 70+ win opponent before? Nope.

The warriors won 73 games in a soft era.not taking away from the warriors but again it just makes curry look that much better.his teammates weren't guys that came together in free agency and decided to play together. No his guys are not even top 10 draft picks and draymond came out the freaking 2nd rd. Many people already believe if dray wasn't suspended than the cavs were dead in 5.than bogut got inuured in game 6.great luck for lebron.

I'm a lakers fan and kareem was exceptional, that's why he's in my top 3.

The problem with kareem was that he played center and he was never a great facilitator, largely because that was out of position for him but also because he wasn't physically capable of the mobility it would take to be the floor general. Compare that to a guy like lebron that can more or less do it all, everything a man can do on a basketball court, lebron can do and often does in every game. Just remember that. This guy can drive down the full court, make the right passes, set his guys up, hit his own shots, generate an offense for himself and his teammates, can block, can force turnovers, can outlet pass, can score almost anyway, and is considered a triple-double threat every time he gets on the floor.

That all goes along with the fact that lebron can play all 5 positions in the modern nba at an all-star level (including smallball center) and guard all 5 positions as well. His versatility and durability make him unique. He's never had a major injury before, he's never missed a single playoff game before.

Blake griffin & kevin durant can play 1 - 5 as well so what's your point ? Those are big guys with guard ability.nothing we haven't seen before.

I'm not saying this dude is goat because that's michael jordan, but his versatility imo is a superior trait to the more limited kareem (again, not a facilitator, distributor, or dribble penetrator, lacked outside shooting range, lacked speed and quickness, less durable than lebron, so on).

I'm not even a lebron fan but you have to be able to recognize how great and talented he is. Again, he's not the goat but at this point in time, going into his 15th season, he's a lock for the top 5, and most certainly a very strong candidate for #2 or #3. Imo he's going to retire #2 to michael jordan.
i agree with almost everything you said but leading your team to the title is what matters the most. Role players aren't impactful as the leaders
shaq,kobe ball through the game and if we need a big shot,horry or fisher be ready. Steve kerr be ready to knock it down. See the difference ?

I think mcgrady was almost as good as kobe in his prime but he was plagued with injuries and his teams sucked.so nobody will talk about mcgrady or iverson as top 10 players because no matter even if they avg 50 ppg a season they have no title's.

Lebron lost too many times on super teams to be considered top 5. If he wins 3 more rings than bam you won't hear a peep out of me.

Super teams are 3 to 4 all stars on 1 team

lebron
wade
bosh
ray allen

lebron
kyrie
kevin love

jr.smith,korver,deron williams,jefferson former starters on other teams.
 
Old 08-02-2017, 08:10 PM
 
1,564 posts, read 1,124,658 times
Reputation: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Facts Kill Rhetoric View Post
Did you see me ever say anything about Magic or that he didn't make his teammates better? Obviously Magic made his teammates better, I never said he didn't. I didn't say anything about the guy at all.

I'm probably the biggest Kobe fan you'll ever meet but no, this is false. Kobe didn't make his teammates better, at least nowhere close to the same stratosphere as LeBron or Magic have been able to. You must be joking and I say this as the biggest Kobe fan you'd ever meet.

If by "Curry is like the new Magic" you really mean "Curry is nothing at all like Magic" then I agree completely. One is a pass-first point guard and the other is a score-first point guard. One was never a scoring threat in his entire career (Magic's career high was like 40-something points, didn't make it to the 50+ range) and the other is considered purely a scoring threat. One played both ends of the court and could slot into all 5 positions in basketball. The other cannot play anything other than point guard or an under-sized shooting guard simply because he's small.

Yeah and he's also one of the only few in NBA history that's ever had to play against juggernaut teams in the Finals that are among the all-time best. Jordan never had to do that because he himself was on the team that was considered among the all-time best, his opponent never was on that high a level. The Utah Jazz, for example were an exemplary 68 win team, but they pale in comparison to all 3 of the Warriors teams LeBron's faced in the NBA Finals, as well as the 2014 Spurs.

Take that into account while you're at it.

Yeah because LeBron's lacking here, right? There's more to a GOAT debate than counting rings, if it were simply that then Bill Russell is the GOAT and no one else comes close. Sure, some guys have more titles, Robert Horry has more than Michael Jordan and Steve Kerr has more than Moses Malone. I suppose you could say Horry > Jordan and Kerr > Malone too, right?

LeBron's 3X NBA Finals MVP and has won with both of the franchises he's played for. Gone to 8 NBA Finals, 4 apiece between the Cavaliers and Heat. On the Miami end, he's 2-2 in the Finals, it's the 1-3 in Cleveland that weighs on his legacy more than anything.

It's not just that either, the level of competition that LeBron's had to go up against in the NBA Finals is more gruesome than what Michael Jordan or Bill Russell ever had to face up against. Arguably more than what Magic and Kareem had to go up against too.

Did Kareem or Magic or Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain ever slay a 73-9 team? Has anyone other than LeBron ever actually slayed a 70+ win opponent before? Nope.

I'm a Lakers fan and Kareem was exceptional, that's why he's in my Top 3.

The problem with Kareem was that he played Center and he was never a great facilitator, largely because that was out of position for him but also because he wasn't physically capable of the mobility it would take to be the floor general. Compare that to a guy like LeBron that can more or less do it all, everything a man can do on a basketball court, LeBron can do and often does in every game. Just remember that. This guy can drive down the full court, make the right passes, set his guys up, hit his own shots, generate an offense for himself and his teammates, can block, can force turnovers, can outlet pass, can score almost anyway, and is considered a triple-double threat every time he gets on the floor.

That all goes along with the fact that LeBron can play all 5 positions in the modern NBA at an All-Star level (including smallball Center) and guard all 5 positions as well. His versatility and durability make him unique. He's never had a major injury before, he's never missed a single playoff game before.

I'm not saying this dude is GOAT because that's Michael Jordan, but his versatility IMO is a superior trait to the more limited Kareem (again, not a facilitator, distributor, or dribble penetrator, lacked outside shooting range, lacked speed and quickness, less durable than LeBron, so on).

I'm not even a LeBron fan but you have to be able to recognize how great and talented he is. Again, he's not the GOAT but at this point in time, going into his 15th season, he's a lock for the Top 5, and most certainly a very strong candidate for #2 or #3. IMO he's going to retire #2 to Michael Jordan.


Blake Griffin & Durant can play 1 - 5 as well,whats your point ?

A few big men have guard ability on the court.Nothing we never seen before.
 
Old 08-02-2017, 08:12 PM
 
1,564 posts, read 1,124,658 times
Reputation: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Facts Kill Rhetoric View Post
Did you see me ever say anything about Magic or that he didn't make his teammates better? Obviously Magic made his teammates better, I never said he didn't. I didn't say anything about the guy at all.

I'm probably the biggest Kobe fan you'll ever meet but no, this is false. Kobe didn't make his teammates better, at least nowhere close to the same stratosphere as LeBron or Magic have been able to. You must be joking and I say this as the biggest Kobe fan you'd ever meet.

If by "Curry is like the new Magic" you really mean "Curry is nothing at all like Magic" then I agree completely. One is a pass-first point guard and the other is a score-first point guard. One was never a scoring threat in his entire career (Magic's career high was like 40-something points, didn't make it to the 50+ range) and the other is considered purely a scoring threat. One played both ends of the court and could slot into all 5 positions in basketball. The other cannot play anything other than point guard or an under-sized shooting guard simply because he's small.

Yeah and he's also one of the only few in NBA history that's ever had to play against juggernaut teams in the Finals that are among the all-time best. Jordan never had to do that because he himself was on the team that was considered among the all-time best, his opponent never was on that high a level. The Utah Jazz, for example were an exemplary 68 win team, but they pale in comparison to all 3 of the Warriors teams LeBron's faced in the NBA Finals, as well as the 2014 Spurs.

Take that into account while you're at it.

Yeah because LeBron's lacking here, right? There's more to a GOAT debate than counting rings, if it were simply that then Bill Russell is the GOAT and no one else comes close. Sure, some guys have more titles, Robert Horry has more than Michael Jordan and Steve Kerr has more than Moses Malone. I suppose you could say Horry > Jordan and Kerr > Malone too, right?

LeBron's 3X NBA Finals MVP and has won with both of the franchises he's played for. Gone to 8 NBA Finals, 4 apiece between the Cavaliers and Heat. On the Miami end, he's 2-2 in the Finals, it's the 1-3 in Cleveland that weighs on his legacy more than anything.

It's not just that either, the level of competition that LeBron's had to go up against in the NBA Finals is more gruesome than what Michael Jordan or Bill Russell ever had to face up against. Arguably more than what Magic and Kareem had to go up against too.

Did Kareem or Magic or Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain ever slay a 73-9 team? Has anyone other than LeBron ever actually slayed a 70+ win opponent before? Nope.

I'm a Lakers fan and Kareem was exceptional, that's why he's in my Top 3.

The problem with Kareem was that he played Center and he was never a great facilitator, largely because that was out of position for him but also because he wasn't physically capable of the mobility it would take to be the floor general. Compare that to a guy like LeBron that can more or less do it all, everything a man can do on a basketball court, LeBron can do and often does in every game. Just remember that. This guy can drive down the full court, make the right passes, set his guys up, hit his own shots, generate an offense for himself and his teammates, can block, can force turnovers, can outlet pass, can score almost anyway, and is considered a triple-double threat every time he gets on the floor.

That all goes along with the fact that LeBron can play all 5 positions in the modern NBA at an All-Star level (including smallball Center) and guard all 5 positions as well. His versatility and durability make him unique. He's never had a major injury before, he's never missed a single playoff game before.

I'm not saying this dude is GOAT because that's Michael Jordan, but his versatility IMO is a superior trait to the more limited Kareem (again, not a facilitator, distributor, or dribble penetrator, lacked outside shooting range, lacked speed and quickness, less durable than LeBron, so on).

I'm not even a LeBron fan but you have to be able to recognize how great and talented he is. Again, he's not the GOAT but at this point in time, going into his 15th season, he's a lock for the Top 5, and most certainly a very strong candidate for #2 or #3. IMO he's going to retire #2 to Michael Jordan.


Curry had the magic johnson effect on his teammates.

He demands so much attention that it freezes up the deefense.

Magic wasn't a great shooter but just him being on the court as the playmaker puts so much confidence in his teammates just like curry.

Look how durant played alongside steph.
9 years with westbrook and he couldnt win 1 title.but 1 year with steph and many are now calling kd the best player in the world over lebron.


Look how harrison barnes is doing in dallas now !!

You act like lebron teams are weak,he's the one that's been playing on handpicked superteams since 2011. All of a sudden the warriors are an all time team ? Where was this all time team in 2012,13 & 14 ? Curry,klay & draymond been together all that time so why weren't they a superteam than ? Oh that's right they came together through the draft and learned great team basketball like the spurs before them.


Horry and kerr were role players lmao when we talk rings were talking about the leaders of the team.
Curry x durant*
kareem x magic*
shaq x kobe, not david west, derek fisher or horry lol


Look lebron took the easy way out. I wonder how many malone or iverson would've won had they teamed up with other superstars in thier prime*



It's really the other way around.*
Lebron should've won every finals he played in except 2007. Him,wade,bosh,ray allen are suppose to beat old man duncan and his spurs

lebron avg 16/17 ppg in the 2011 finals on a superteam.

He was supposed to kill that dallas team.*

Prime jordan never avg such low numbers in the finals.*


The warriors won 73 games in a soft era.not taking away from the warriors but again it just makes curry look that much better.his teammates weren't guys that came together in free agency and decided to play together. No his guys are not even top 10 draft picks and draymond came out the freaking 2nd rd. Many people already believe if dray wasn't suspended than the cavs were dead in 5.than bogut got inuured in game 6.great luck for lbj
 
Old 08-03-2017, 02:57 PM
 
Location: So California
8,548 posts, read 8,881,299 times
Reputation: 4641
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
the regular seasons are close as i claim? the regular season numbers are exactly as i "claimed" they are right there on basketball ref which was linked.

the 36 regular season games, averaged, garnett is CLEARLY the better player. dirk is about even with KG only looking at offense. they both average about the same amount, yet KG took less shots and made more. period.
he averaged 12 rebounds to 8, he averaged 4.4 assists to 2.1, he averaged 1.3 steals to .6, he averaged 1.2 blocks to .8.
he is better in every category except ppg, where he averaged about 1/2 a point less, and he turned the ball over a fair amount.

you havent figured out by now, i couldnt care less about dirks offense, the game is played at 2 ends of the floor.
dirk < KG < DUNCAN.

playoff head to head is a wasted comparison as they only played 3 games in the playoffs against each other.
lets look at supporting casts while we are at it.
KG has had a history of terrible supporting casts while in minny,
ranked by minutes played per game (only listing players averaging over 20 min)

kg
wally szczerbiak
terrell brandon
chauncey billups
rasho
joe smith
anthony peeler

micheal finley
dirk (yup, dirk didnt even lead his team in minutes)
steve nash
juwan Howard
raef lafrentz
nick van exel
adrian griffin
tim hardaway
eduardo najera
greg buckner

dirk had a lot more help.


Duncan could be argued as last on that list......sorry
Anyway KG is last for sure. Dirk vastly outperformed KG in the playoffs throughout his career, has a finals MVP actually leading his team to a title in one of the toughest runs in recent history, has better longevity at a high level, top 6 all time scorer. Its close, but not that close....


KG has a terrible history of choking in the playoffs until he got substantial help where he didn't have to be the man at the end of a game.
 
Old 08-03-2017, 03:47 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,198,412 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by slo1318 View Post
Duncan could be argued as last on that list......sorry
Anyway KG is last for sure. Dirk vastly outperformed KG in the playoffs throughout his career, has a finals MVP actually leading his team to a title in one of the toughest runs in recent history, has better longevity at a high level, top 6 all time scorer. Its close, but not that close....


KG has a terrible history of choking in the playoffs until he got substantial help where he didn't have to be the man at the end of a game.
now youre just trolling, or you have no idea what youre talking about. one or the other... or both?

dirk had some great help on his title run, kidd, all time great, arguably a top 3 PG ever.
terry, butler, marion, chandler, peja. those guys were FAR FAR FAR better than any team KG was on pre-boston. leaps and bounds more help.

dirk never made a single all defensive team. KG has 12 plus a DPOY. he was also 4x rebound leader. dirk has a higher ppg average, KG averages higher in every other category. rebounds, assists, blocks and steals. its so fr that dirk could lead the league in all those categories for the next 2 seasons and still never catch KG's totals.

dirk is absolutely a better shooter/scorer, though not terribly far off on ppg. (kg shoots a better % from 2 and took less shots.)
but KG did absolutely EVERYTHING better.
the game is played at 2 ends of hte floor, and there is a reason people call him IRK, because there aint no D in nowitzki.
 
Old 08-03-2017, 05:01 PM
 
1,564 posts, read 1,124,658 times
Reputation: 500
Micheal Jordan once again made headlines by saying Kobe Bryant is still better than LeBron James on the all time ranking list.

ESPN poll results are also in,

70,876 people have voted through the ESPN polling system and Kobe came out on top 60% to Lebron 40%


SportsNation -- How would you rank LeBron James and Kobe Bryant?
 
Old 08-03-2017, 07:09 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,198,412 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe25 View Post
Micheal Jordan once again made headlines by saying Kobe Bryant is still better than LeBron James on the all time ranking list.

ESPN poll results are also in,

70,876 people have voted through the ESPN polling system and Kobe came out on top 60% to Lebron 40%


SportsNation -- How would you rank LeBron James and Kobe Bryant?
Nobody cares who Jordan thinks is better than who. I mean the man picked kwame brown for god sake. He's no judge of talent.
 
Old 08-03-2017, 07:55 PM
 
149 posts, read 63,872 times
Reputation: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe25 View Post
Micheal Jordan once again made headlines by saying Kobe Bryant is still better than LeBron James on the all time ranking list.

ESPN poll results are also in,

70,876 people have voted through the ESPN polling system and Kobe came out on top 60% to Lebron 40%


SportsNation -- How would you rank LeBron James and Kobe Bryant?
This topic has been discussed over a million times already.

Kobe fans will say Kobe and LeBron fans will say Lebron,

Do rings matter ? Of course they do because it proves you led your team to victory on the biggest stage.

But stats say Lebron is better ? It's difficult to judge Kobe career because his numbers were effected by sharing the ball with Shaq for 8 years and than his last 3 years he was injured.

Skillwise ? Yes Kobe is better based off of skills but Lebron is the better all around player.

Mvps ? Popularity contest at best.
Shaq only has 1 mvp so is Steve nash also better than Shaq ?

Kobe deserved the Mvp in 2006 & 07 but his team was trash.

Shaq carried Kobe ? Prime Shaq would be the #1 option over an 18 year old Lebron as well.They needed each other to win those rings.

Lebron formed a Super team ? Well he had no help in his first 7 years in the league.

Killer instinct ? Kobe is in the Jordan and Bird realm when it comes to taking over a game in the 4th quarter.

Who's better ? Lebron career isn't over yet.
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