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Old 08-04-2017, 12:13 PM
 
Location: So California
8,556 posts, read 8,891,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukcha View Post
1 on 1 is tough for a defensive guy.
on the other hand, in a 1 on 1, you want to create easy shots for yourself. Dirk's best asset is scoring in tough situations. I think he looks better in a 5 on 5 than a 1 on 1
...still I'd bet on the better scorer, which is Dirk.

As for a team situation, I think if I have a superteam like the Warriors, or I already have a Kobe on my team, I pick KG. He's the ultimate big man glue guy. He'll pass, stretch the floor, make athletic plays, he's vocal on defense, he'll make everyone better on defense and make offense flow better.
Dirk is one of the best scorers in halfcourt. He creates points out of nothing. If you aren't a perfect team that's loaded with all stars, then great defenses with lock you down sometimes and you will need someone who can make something out of nothing. Dirk is one of the best. KG was an in the flow of the game scorer. He needed teammates with bigger balls on offense. It's a bit like Bird vs. Pippen imo.


That's a great point about KG being a flow scorer. He was very active so he got lots of inside put backs and dunks, explains his relatively high 2pt scoring percentage. He wasn't a top game winning shot type of guy, where Dirk ranks very high in that category.

 
Old 08-04-2017, 04:01 PM
 
11,680 posts, read 7,061,094 times
Reputation: 6387
Jordan says Kobe > Lebron
 
Old 08-05-2017, 08:38 PM
 
52,033 posts, read 41,862,229 times
Reputation: 32465
Anyone trying to rank a guy that hasn't finished their career and is still at or near their prime is an idiot.

That is all.
 
Old 08-06-2017, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,214 posts, read 2,842,150 times
Reputation: 4507
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Anyone trying to rank a guy that hasn't finished their career and is still at or near their prime is an idiot.

That is all.
Obviously you have a very short memory of Jordan's playing career. Or Magic's, or Bird's, or a pretty much any other great who was ranked while still playing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Jordan says Kobe > Lebron
It's clear Jordan is threatened by the fact that there are people willing to question him as the unrivaled GOAT, because otherwise, he wouldn't repeatedly bash a guy who has always shown him the utmost respect. And this has been happening for years...every year, Jordan opens his old ass mouth to slight Lebron...

Nevertheless, I found an article on the Lebron/Jordan debate where one writer perfectly sums up the fight Lebron faces versus Jordan...which, we all knew, but many if us choose to ignore the fact that we grade Lebron on much different criteria...

Weekly Question: The LeBron James-Michael Jordan debate

Weekly Question: The LeBron James-Michael Jordan debate
by Kevin Flaherty
Jun 15, 8:00 PM

Kevin Flaherty, 247Sports national college basketball writer
Itís a fascinating question, largely because those who are now writing LeBron James off are using different criteria than was used to crown Michael Jordan as the greatest player of all time. Go back and watch a news broadcast from when Jordan retired the first time ó he Ďonlyí had three titles, yet nearly every broadcast referred to him as the best player in NBA history anyway.
In short, people used the eye test, watched Jordan play and determined that he was better than anybody who came before him, regardless of whether guys like Magic Johnson (five championships) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (six) or Bill Russell (11) had more titles. Yet when James is dismissed in the greatest player argument, itís typically because he has fewer titles despite more trips to the NBA Finals than Jordan has.

........

I didn't see Mike. I did see Kobe. It isnt close. Lebron James is the greatest basketball player I have ever seen by an astounding margin. As I've stated before, while they are still in the minority, there are plenty of people who saw Mike play that say Lebron is better. For some reason, that threatens this billionaire and hurts his feelings. I guess you get upset over the smallest things when you're that wealthy. Without question, he's the one who sounds like a true idiot with his "five better than three" comment, as if we can't put up a roster of players who have rings better than six....

No matter who one sides with, there is a small margin between the greatness of both Lebron and Jordan. Even if Jordan is still a greater player to you, there is no way possible he's leaps and bounds greater than a player who is leaps and bounds better than every single other player whose sniffed the NBA since 1998...
 
Old 08-06-2017, 01:09 PM
 
52,033 posts, read 41,862,229 times
Reputation: 32465
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
Obviously you have a very short memory of Jordan's playing career. Or Magic's, or Bird's, or a pretty much any other great who was ranked while still playing....
OF COURSE people did it back then too.....I do remember that.

I thought it was stupid then too.

Thanks.

Now if the player is in their obvious last year or two in the league playing off the bench or whatnot then sure....but for players still making the all-nba team and being in the hunt for championships and MVP's?

It's irrational.
 
Old 08-06-2017, 02:09 PM
 
1,564 posts, read 1,127,363 times
Reputation: 500
Lebron fans can't have it both ways,They say he led his team to the finals at 22 yrs old but than we say yeah but he got swept in the finals his fans than say it's because he didn't have a team lol !!!

So which one is it ?

Btw Detroit didn't have their Defensive powerhouse Ben Wallace in 2007 either but that's beside the point.

Than they say it's the stats that make him the best,Than we say Westbrook put up greater stats across the board than Lebron ever have so is Westbrook better ? Not at all.

If it was all about stats than there's alot of guys with greater stats than Lebron
Kareem
Bill Russell
Jordan
Magic
Oscar Robertson
Wilt
Shaq


Than they say he has the Mvps over Kobe, Now if we look up Kobe numbers,he put up better numbers than the Mvps who won them in 03,05,06,07 and than there's a strong argument for 2013 when he put up 27 / 6 / 7 at 34 years old in his 17th yr in the league to lead the broke down Lakers to the playoffs.

That's 5 Mvps Kobe deseved !! Than they say it's about having a great team to win Mvp,Westbrook team wasn't great at all and he just won it, Many believe it was the Colorado case that kept the media from awarding Kobe more Mvps.
So is it most valuable team or most valuable player ?

Here's my assessment, There's Lebron fans and there's Kobe & Mike fans. I rank Kobe & Jordan over Lebron based on skills and the will to win + that killer instinct is not something you can teach,you just gotta be born with it.

Maybe the media does hate Kobe,It seems like alot of radio people on talk shows rank Lebron over Kobe easily.

Than they ask the Nba players and damn near everybody from Jordan to Pippen to Shaq,KD,Wade,Barkley and many more say Kobe is over Lebron.

That's not good enough they take it to the ESPN polls so fans could vote around the world and Kobe even wins that.


THE FANS AROUND THE WORLD HAVE SPOKEN, KOBE > LEBRON

70,876 people have voted through ESPN and Kobe came out on top 60% to Lebron 40%


SportsNation -- How would you rank LeBron James and Kobe Bryant?

There's like 5 to 6 more ESPN polls from 2013 till now where Kobe won those as well.

Last but not least they say Kobe had Shaq, So why didn't Shaq win before Kobe came along ?

Why did Kobe go to 3 more finals and win back to back without Shaq ? Didn't Kobe prove he never needed Shaq to win multiple title's ?

Shouldn't this be the case for Magic & Kareem as well ?
Did Magic win without Kareem ?

Did Lebron ever win without teaming up with 2 to 3 All stars by his side ?

Lebron will eventually end his career with unbelievable stats across the board.He may break alot of records that Jordan holds but based on skills,will to win and championships, Jordan is simply the GOAT

6 for 6 in Nba finals
5 Mvps
6 FMVPS
10 scoring title's
All time leader in ppg for career average
Avg 41 / 8 / 6 in the 93 finals ( UNREAL )
Led the Bulls to 70 & 72 wins
Defensive player of the year
Avg 37 ppg in 87

I mean there's no need to continue,
Jordan is basically Kobe with the all time stats
Same skill set and killer mentality .
 
Old 08-06-2017, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,214 posts, read 2,842,150 times
Reputation: 4507
Lol oh my god p, just stop it! I don't know what's worse, your Lebron hate or Kobe fandom...
 
Old 08-06-2017, 05:57 PM
 
482 posts, read 252,047 times
Reputation: 1196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobe25 View Post
Here's my assessment, There's Lebron fans and there's Kobe & Mike fans. I rank Kobe & Jordan over Lebron based on skills and the will to win + that killer instinct is not something you can teach,you just gotta be born with it.
I disagree that it has to be one side or the other. Plenty of fans out there like all three guys. And plenty, like me, dislike them all.

If I were to rank those three guys in order, without any regard for who I'm a "fan" of, I'd put Mike first, LeBron second, and Kobe third. The gap between LeBron and Kobe would be larger than the gap between Mike and Bron.

I respect you for writing such an epic post to back up your guy. I'm just not sure why it's that important to you. Like some other people are beginning to say about MJ, LeBron seems to be threatening to some people.

Imho the single biggest factor in who's a better player is not who has the most titles or the best stats or the most accolades; it's who I'd want to start a team with first. For the best players their career titles, stats and accolades will all wind up as rough indicators of where they fall on the list, but it's not exact because basketball is such a team sport. No one says Bill Russell is automatically better than MJ because he has more titles; it's understood that Jordan's six are enough to earn him a legitimate place in any goat debate.

It's the same thing with Kobe versus LeBron. Obviously five is more than three, but anyone with three has earned their way into the conversation. To this day some people still say Larry Bird is the best player ever, and he only has three. Kobe fans seem to emphasize titles so much in the goat debates because they know it's the only measurement that favors him; they ignore how LeBron -- even with two fewer titles overall -- already has more Finals MVPs than Kobe, and has so many more regular season MVPs it's not even worth mentioning as an area for comparison.

One more thing: How many points per game does "killer instinct" average? Yes, LeBron himself admitted he didn't have Kobe's killer instinct, but it doesn't matter if one player is flat out better than the other.

This reminds me of when Pau Gasol was in his prime and everyone called him soft, but then would play against him and he'd drop 18 and 12 on them without blinking. Aside from Boston to a limited extent, there wasn't a team in the league with a front line that could handle him. So even giving Kobe the W for "killer instinct" and "skill", LeBron still on a per/game basis has scored more, scored easier, gotten more rebounds, gotten more assists, gotten more steals, gotten more blocks, played more positions, defended more positions, more often dominated on both sides of the floor during the same game (it was much more rare for Kobe to lock in as a scorer and a stopper during the same game -- he tended to do one or the other), and yes LeBron has more often carried teams full of scrubs deep into the playoffs.

Between Bron and Kobe the better overall player is actually pretty clear to me, but it is what it is. Team Mamba doesn't waiver from their mission of deception, which is to try to convince everyone that Kobe Bryant was the best player on five NBA title teams.
 
Old 08-06-2017, 06:40 PM
 
1,564 posts, read 1,127,363 times
Reputation: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
Lol oh my god p, just stop it! I don't know what's worse, your Lebron hate or Kobe fandom...
Like i said there's Lebron fans and there's Jordan & Kobe fans.

I understand fans can be bias for there favorite player but when i rank someone i base it off of title's + the skills they had

Duncan 5 rings and leadership is why i rank him over Lebron.

His team's beat Lebron down with Duncan as the leader or at least the co captain so that has to count.If Malone Jazz team beat Jordan team twice in the finals they wouldn't let Jordan rest lmao but they give Lebron a pass over Duncan.

Shaq 4 rings and dominance is why i rank him over Lebron also.

For those that say rings mean nothing because Horry has 7,
Look Horry was a role player,Derek fisher,Steve Kerr we're role player's.I don't see how fans don't understand this lol
It's their way of hating on Jordan & Kobe !!!

Shaq ◊ Kobe = Team leaders
Duncan ◊ Robinson = Team leaders
Durant ◊ Curry , Magic ◊ Kareem = Team leaders

After Jordan retired only 2 players had a serious chance of really surpassing him and that was Kobe & Lebron.

Believe it or not alot of players in the Nba still look up to Kobe

Most notably is Kyrie Irving.The debate is fun but it's time for it to stop.Kobe & Lebron represent different era's respectively.

Kobe true competition was the players drafted in 96 - 99
Iverson
Mcgrady
Ray Allen
Paul pierce
Stephon Marbury
Vince Carter
Micheal Finley
Steve Francis
Duncan & Garnett but to a lesser degree because they were big men.But whenever Kobe faced any of those guys listed above it was must see on t.v.

Lebron true competition was the players drafted in 03 - 06

But just like Kobe before him,they put him and Kd in a rivalry because they both represent the best players in the world.

From Lebron era,his biggest competition was Carmelo & Dwayne Wade !!

He joined Wade for 4 years so we never got to see a playoff battle between the two.Carmelo just didn't have enough help from 2010 till now so

So i think the fans represent 2 different generations as well.
For those of us who watched Kobe play from beginning to end we see him as the Micheal Jordan of this generation,
Some even think Kobe is the greatest and i understand its the era they most remember because they didn't get to see Jordan or Magic play.

It's just a generation thing.My uncle's think Wilt,Kareem and Dr.J are the best ever,it's what they saw so i can't argue it


Lebron fans are now living in that same moment.
But to me it's all about leading your team to rings.

If it was truly about stats than Karl Malone blows Tim Duncan out the water.

Than Chamberlain and Oscar Robertson are the best ever.

Micheal Jordan knows what he's talking about.
Shaq doesn't win 3 rings without Kobe demolishing the Western Conference. Shaq destroyed the weak centers in the east and won finals Mvp.Many use that against Kobe but not against Kareem & Magic.

Kobe won multiple title's after Shaq left to prove he never needed Shaq.

Magic never won without Kareem so he's in the same boat.
Kareem won 2 Finals Mvp & Magic won 3 so was Kareem carried by Magic when Magic won it ? Was Magic carried by Kareem when Kareem won it ? See what im saying about fans trying to have it both ways to fit their agenda.

Is a 19 / 20 yr old Jordan not a 2nd option to Prime Shaq ?
Is a 19/ 20 yr old Lebron not a 2nd option to Prime Shaq ?

And what about Lebron teaming up with 2 to 3 other Superstars to chase rings ,Does he win a ring if he never leaves Cleveland in the first place ?

What if Iverson teamed up with Duncan & Ginobli after he was defeated in 2001 by Shaq & Kobe ? Surely Iverson wins a few rings with multiple All stars by his side right ?

Just like Durant won his first championship because he did what Lebron did 7 years ago, Team up with other stars.

Don't matter if it's a 73 w team or 45 w team, 3 to 4 stars on 1 team is a monster.

Last edited by Kobe25; 08-06-2017 at 07:30 PM..
 
Old 08-06-2017, 07:04 PM
 
1,564 posts, read 1,127,363 times
Reputation: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallasgoldrush View Post
I disagree that it has to be one side or the other. Plenty of fans out there like all three guys. And plenty, like me, dislike them all.

If I were to rank those three guys in order, without any regard for who I'm a "fan" of, I'd put Mike first, LeBron second, and Kobe third. The gap between LeBron and Kobe would be larger than the gap between Mike and Bron.

I respect you for writing such an epic post to back up your guy. I'm just not sure why it's that important to you. Like some other people are beginning to say about MJ, LeBron seems to be threatening to some people.

Imho the single biggest factor in who's a better player is not who has the most titles or the best stats or the most accolades; it's who I'd want to start a team with first. For the best players their career titles, stats and accolades will all wind up as rough indicators of where they fall on the list, but it's not exact because basketball is such a team sport. No one says Bill Russell is automatically better than MJ because he has more titles; it's understood that Jordan's six are enough to earn him a legitimate place in any goat debate.

It's the same thing with Kobe versus LeBron. Obviously five is more than three, but anyone with three has earned their way into the conversation. To this day some people still say Larry Bird is the best player ever, and he only has three. Kobe fans seem to emphasize titles so much in the goat debates because they know it's the only measurement that favors him; they ignore how LeBron -- even with two fewer titles overall -- already has more Finals MVPs than Kobe, and has so many more regular season MVPs it's not even worth mentioning as an area for comparison.

One more thing: How many points per game does "killer instinct" average? Yes, LeBron himself admitted he didn't have Kobe's killer instinct, but it doesn't matter if one player is flat out better than the other.

This reminds me of when Pau Gasol was in his prime and everyone called him soft, but then would play against him and he'd drop 18 and 12 on them without blinking. Aside from Boston to a limited extent, there wasn't a team in the league with a front line that could handle him. So even giving Kobe the W for "killer instinct" and "skill", LeBron still on a per/game basis has scored more, scored easier, gotten more rebounds, gotten more assists, gotten more steals, gotten more blocks, played more positions, defended more positions, more often dominated on both sides of the floor during the same game (it was much more rare for Kobe to lock in as a scorer and a stopper during the same game -- he tended to do one or the other), and yes LeBron has more often carried teams full of scrubs deep into the playoffs.

Between Bron and Kobe the better overall player is actually pretty clear to me, but it is what it is. Team Mamba doesn't waiver from their mission of deception, which is to try to convince everyone that Kobe Bryant was the best player on five NBA title teams.

I respect your opinion sir and i see exactly where your coming from.

But i rank Kobe over Lebron because to me he's Micheal Jordan with better dribbles and better 3 pt shot.

If i we're to take Kobe & Lebron rings away all i would have left is my eyes.

Now Lebron is bigger,faster & stronger than Jordan & Kobe,
He's a true freak of nature that i believe any Gm will want to start a team with a guy like him and Magic.

Here's where skills come into play,
The game is tight,2 minutes left and i need a player to lead us to victory by any means.If he has to shoot a fadeaway over 2 defenders with 2 seconds left than im going with Jordan and Kobe over Lebron 10 times out of 10.

That's where footwork and will to win comes into play,
It's where players are super nervous and fans are standing on their feet booing or cheering you.

That's what separates Lebron from Kobe & Jordan.
I look at film on YouTube and i shake my head at the things I've seen Jordan and Kobe do. I literally rewind the film and say damn Jordan is Unreal !!! Kobe is Unhuman !!

I look at Lebron film and say ok he got some powerful dunks but nothing that ever made me rewind the film to look at his footwork or crossovers. His fadeaways or jumpshots aren't as smooth as Kobe and Jordan.Someone even uploaded a video where Kobe & Jordan had identical plays.

But my best memory of Kobe ever is the 2004 last season game vs the Blazers.

Toughest shots in Nba history easy.
If you don't believe me go look it up and come talk to me.

His first shot was off his freaking pivot foot with elite defender Ruben Patterson draped all over him and boom Kobe delivered what i thought was pure luck.

Than in overtime with 1.0 seconds left,He knocks down a fadeaway 3 point buzzer beater that silences 20,000 fans.
Swish,bottom of the net,Most AMAZING SHOT I EVER SAW IN MY LIFE.

That's when i said the first shot wasn't luck, This guy is a stone cold assassin that's on the level of Mike far as killer instinct goes.

Stats can't tell you who's a killer with a will to win so that's why i use this thing called the eye test.

There's absolutely nothing a Lebron fan can tell me to change my mind.

It's just like watching Mayweather or Sugar ray,Of course there's bigger + stronger guys but just based on skills and will to win im taking Floyd & Sugar ray over anybody.

Hopefully you understood my logic and we can agree to disagree.
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