U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Basketball
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 07-05-2017, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Washington, DC
3,849 posts, read 3,971,409 times
Reputation: 6499

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post

Scoring? Absolutely. Toughness? Nope. Hayward is a talented player. He can score, handle the ball, and initiate offense. He has the size to be a plus defender (though he hasn't put that together with effort & IQ yet). He is not "tough" as NBA players go.
We'd have to define the term toughness. Hayward has been the go-to scorer on an otherwise offensively challenged Jazz team (so he gets extra attention) and has delivered points and efficiency. I'd call that toughness, maybe the most important kind.

He's also been part of one of the best ranked defensive teams. Sure Rudy Gobert deserves the most credit but Hayward is less yielding than an awful lot of wings out there.

He's very consistent too, another type of toughness. Players who only play well 1 out of 3 or 4 games aren't mentally tough in my book.

But no, Hayward is not going to use hard fouls or trash talk much.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-05-2017, 11:54 AM
 
3,789 posts, read 1,378,827 times
Reputation: 1603
Quote:
Originally Posted by weezerfan84 View Post
You're missing the point here. He's still a valuable asset off the bench. Where they made a colossal error is with Deron Williams. Not only did he play his worst basketball ever for himself in the Finals, but no team wants his corpse after that performance. I bet what the Cavs are betting on for next season is a little more spot up shooting improvement from Korver and D. Will can pull a little bit from the "D Wade Father time bag" and get some of his game back. I mean D. Will was just absolutely awful, making only one basket during the entire NBA Finals. He and Shump need to find their shot badly. If Shump can develop a shot that nets him 8-10 points a game, and D Will can contribute 6-8 points, than this Cavs team has some serious upside. Shump and D. Will have to step up. No excuses!
Korver, Williams, and shumpert were all awful which is why they lost the series 4-1.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2017, 12:41 PM
 
4,492 posts, read 3,156,891 times
Reputation: 4293
Quote:
Originally Posted by moneymkt View Post
Korver, Williams, and shumpert were all awful which is why they lost the series 4-1.

And no one is saying they were good role players, except for Korver. They needed production from all 3 to be competitive in this series. With them being part of the 2nd unit, the Warriors weren't scared of them and dared them to shoot often. Korver is excluded from this discussion. Shump and D Will couldn't hit the backside of the barn.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2017, 12:52 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,875,735 times
Reputation: 2263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Back to NE View Post
We'd have to define the term toughness. Hayward has been the go-to scorer on an otherwise offensively challenged Jazz team (so he gets extra attention) and has delivered points and efficiency. I'd call that toughness, maybe the most important kind.

He's also been part of one of the best ranked defensive teams. Sure Rudy Gobert deserves the most credit but Hayward is less yielding than an awful lot of wings out there.

He's very consistent too, another type of toughness. Players who only play well 1 out of 3 or 4 games aren't mentally tough in my book.

But no, Hayward is not going to use hard fouls or trash talk much.
Consistency and scoring are not toughness. They do contribute to winning basketball, but they are not toughness. Setting screens, boxing out, and physical defense are indicative of NBA toughness. Gobert is tough. Zaza is tough. Shumpert is tough. Tony Allen & Patrick Beverly are tough. Hayward is not tough. But he is good.

Hayward was not very consistent when he got swept by the Warriors defense in Round 2. He played well in one of those four games. He's not going to be the best player on a championship team, but he is a useful player. His fit should be good with Boston.

Quote:
Originally Posted by weezerfan84 View Post
And no one is saying they were good role players, except for Korver. They needed production from all 3 to be competitive in this series. With them being part of the 2nd unit, the Warriors weren't scared of them and dared them to shoot often. Korver is excluded from this discussion. Shump and D Will couldn't hit the backside of the barn.
Shump was good . . . just not on offense. Deron was atrocious, but what would you expect?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2017, 01:06 PM
 
2,838 posts, read 1,777,608 times
Reputation: 1243
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
Lebron is the reason billups turned down the GM job





Players miss shots. You can't judge a guys worth on a single missed shot, that's ridiculous. I mean let's blame the coach for the missed shot, or Lebron himself for not taking the last shot... it's just dumb to think that way.
It is reported it was pay. He was offered less to be the GM than his current situation. Many already felt it would take a pay increase because he has children finishing school and didn't want to move his family.


There are plenty of theories.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2017, 01:12 PM
 
2,838 posts, read 1,777,608 times
Reputation: 1243
Regarding Shump...


He displayed the most offensive ability his first year with Cleveland. Personally I would put him with the first unit get him cutting to the basket and make him less of an initiator on offense when you have Lebron, Kyrie and Love on the floor. He is fine playing off the ball and playing off those three in the first quarter could get his confidence going and get him some easier looks. I would give JR more minutes with the second unit as he possesses more offensive skills (initiating) offense than Shump. JR can be relied upon- how soon do we forget the 2016 playoffs? He was one of the best on ball defenders last season. JR also missed time with a broken wrist, contract holdout and a child in intensive care most of the season. While age doesn't help the roster- I assume some circumstances will get better.


There was much to be desired with Lue's rotations ALL year. He was cut some slack because of the injuries...I've asked a few posters on her to examine the Cavs box scores and just see how chemistry played an equal role this year with their defensive numbers. You can't play good team defense with moving parts when chemistry and communication are essential- things got a little better in the playoffs- where time, practice, health allowed for rotations to be set.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2017, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC
3,849 posts, read 3,971,409 times
Reputation: 6499
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Consistency and scoring are not toughness. They do contribute to winning basketball, but they are not toughness. Setting screens, boxing out, and physical defense are indicative of NBA toughness. Gobert is tough. Zaza is tough. Shumpert is tough. Tony Allen & Patrick Beverly are tough. Hayward is not tough. But he is good.

Hayward was not very consistent when he got swept by the Warriors defense in Round 2. He played well in one of those four games. He's not going to be the best player on a championship team, but he is a useful player. His fit should be good with Boston.
So you are defining toughness as physical only, I don't agree with that. Mental toughness is one of the most important attributes to have in the NBA. Sometimes it gets called "heart." Who played with more heart (and mental toughness) than Michael Jordan? He was bent on playing hard, hitting tough shots and competing for wins in big games, but was he particularly physical? No

Shumpert hasn't been a go-to scorer since high school or college. Plus no one cares if he uses all his fouls. He disappears in many games and is an overrated defender. He isn't tough. Now Lance Stephenson knows about elevating his play, he'll challenge and give trouble to Lebron and any star while making tough shots under duress. He's very tough.

Toughness is someone who will do a lot to help you win especially in the playoffs. Most rookies and young pros cannot be tough even if they are physical studs. They don't have the mental game yet.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2017, 02:03 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,198,412 times
Reputation: 1982
nick young going to the warriors.
1 year 5.2 mil


http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246760/Nick-Young-Agrees-To-One-Year-$52M-Deal-With-Warriors
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2017, 02:14 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,875,735 times
Reputation: 2263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Back to NE View Post
So you are defining toughness as physical only, I don't agree with that. Mental toughness is one of the most important attributes to have in the NBA. Sometimes it gets called "heart." Who played with more heart (and mental toughness) than Michael Jordan? He was bent on playing hard, hitting tough shots and competing for wins in big games, but was he particularly physical? No

Shumpert hasn't been a go-to scorer since high school or college. Plus no one cares if he uses all his fouls. He disappears in many games and is an overrated defender. He isn't tough. Now Lance Stephenson knows about elevating his play, he'll challenge and give trouble to Lebron and any star while making tough shots under duress. He's very tough.

Toughness is someone who will do a lot to help you win especially in the playoffs. Most rookies and young pros cannot be tough even if they are physical studs. They don't have the mental game yet.
Mental toughness is about effort and not shying from physical play. It's not about hitting shots. Jordan was physical & more important, didn't shy away from the physicality opponents used against him. Steph Curry is a tougher player than Hayward. He sets screens against much larger players & steps up to the challenge when switched onto larger players defensively. He's not afraid to crash the boards, box out, and sacrifice his body to get after loose balls. That's toughness.

Jamal Crawford is a good ISO scorer. He has taken a lot of end of quarter shots in his career by breaking down an ISO defender. He is not tough.

Shump is a good defender. He doesn't contribute much offense. He plays physical perimeter defense to disrupt opposing scorers. He sets & fights through screens. He is the picture of NBA toughness.

I agree that most rookies haven't developed the mental toughness to bring the effort & physicality necessary to compete in the NBA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigas View Post
nick young going to the warriors.
1 year 5.2 mil

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/246760/Nick-Young-Agrees-To-One-Year-$52M-Deal-With-Warriors
I think it's a good signing. Young can shoot and has good size. He can contribute some ball handling to the backup unit, too. He's never been a particularly good defender, but he was a pretty average wing defender this year. Surrounded by a bunch of good defenders and guru Ron Adams, I think we will see Swaggy P get down on defense. He and McCaw will take over Ian Clark's minutes, and Swaggy will deliver the points that Clark used to. Young is also nice to have for games when the Dubs rest Iguodala or Thompson.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-05-2017, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC
3,849 posts, read 3,971,409 times
Reputation: 6499
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Mental toughness is about effort and not shying from physical play. It's not about hitting shots. Jordan was physical & more important, didn't shy away from the physicality opponents used against him. Steph Curry is a tougher player than Hayward. He sets screens against much larger players & steps up to the challenge when switched onto larger players defensively. He's not afraid to crash the boards, box out, and sacrifice his body to get after loose balls. That's toughness.
But it is about hitting shots too. You are still not accepting that there is a mental aspect to toughness. We have to agree to disagree.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Basketball
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top