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Old 08-24-2017, 09:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukcha View Post
I don't know about ESPN but many fans fetish defense. Maybe it's because they want to seem cool and un-ESPN, I don't know. But failure by defensive players is often tolerated more, while it's easy for somebody like Dirk to get labeled a choker.

That's my opinion based on conversations with fans. As I'm from Europe, I don't have American TV highlight shows, NBA talk shows and such.

I would say that Melo is a more skilled and better offensive player. Although one great thing about PP is that he always played huge minutes. He was durable, mostly healthy and had high stamina. That's an argument I could see over Carmelo.

If you look at per possession scoring, it's clear that Melo consistently carried more of his team's offense than Pierce. Their efficiency difference isn't huge, neither was a super efficient player and Pierce was very up and down in that regard. Pierce certainly was no James Harden or Durant.

I think today it's the fashionable thing to bash Melo, because he missed all those playoffs on terrible teams.

But to me, to this day the defining Carmelo moment was 2009. He was fantastic in the playoffs. They kept it close in most games vs. the Lakers, and that series could've gone both ways. Melo went pretty close to pulling a Dirk that year. That's what I remember most about Melo's career, and nothing can take it from him, in my eyes. Pierce that year was asked to lead the Celtics without KG but they couldn't get past the Magic - Pierce himself was pretty miserable vs. them, and the Magic then went on to be trashed by the Lakers.

At that moment in time, if I asked anyone who was a better player of these two, people would have seen me as an idiot, there was no debate. Obviously, Melo made a mistake joining the Knicks and Pierce overall achieved more with his team.
1) Melo is going to go into the HOF so nobody is saying he sucks. However, I think Pierce brought almost as much offensively while being a vastly superior defensive player.

2) I don't put much stock in one year looking at just 2 playoff series from that year.

3) Nobody is comparing Pierce to Durant or Harden...but rather to Melo.

4) I've never heard Dirk labeled a choker, I mean sure there is always one guy that might have it in for a certain player but (maybe I'm wrong) I'm not familiar with that being a mainstream thing. All big time players get crapped on until they win a championship if that's what you're getting at. Lebron got it too, so did Jordan if you're old enough to remember.
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Old 08-24-2017, 10:22 AM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,874,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliRestoration View Post
Doubt it. The guy started a new era for the MOST successful franchise in league history. There was the Bill Russell era, the Larry Bird Era and then the Pierce era. He pretty much defined the Celtics for 15 years. No way the guy just gets forgotten.
I know why Boston fans feel it's the Pierce era, but in reality it was the KG era. KG took a decent Boston team to a contender. He was the clear-cut best player on all of those teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliRestoration View Post
Can you really blame that ALL on Pierce?

Without KG all they had was Perkins and Big Baby down low to contain Dwight Howard. I actually watched that series and remember how Howard feasted down low against slow, immobile, limited Perkins, and slow, short, fat, Big Baby Davis. Howard averaged over 17 rebounds a game in that series, the MOST of any series he played in during the 2009 playoffs. Not only that, because the Celtics had no big that could stretch the floor since Perkins and Big Baby were not the shooters that KG was, the defensive schemes were much easier for the magic and it showed. Both Ray Allen and Paul Pierce had a low scoring series due to the extra defensive pressure.

Not sure I buy the logic of using the 2009 ECSF against Pierce given his teams structural disadvantages once KG was gone, while at the same time praising Melo for his performance against the Lakers in the WCF where he had all the pieces but just had a bad performance. In that series Melo was horrible. He only shot 40% for crying out loud. Also besides the first two games I disagree that the series was all that competitive, the Lakers won with the ease the last 4 games IMO.
You can't blame it all on Pierce, but it reflects KG's importance to that team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliRestoration View Post
I honestly cannot put together more than 15 names I'd clearly rank over Pierce at SF. Can you tell me what your top 20 sf list looks like?
Hmmm. . . more or less:

LBJ
Larry Bird
KD
Dr. J
Pippen
Rick Barry
McGrady
Adrian Dantley
James Worthy
Connie Hawkins
John Havlicek
Alex English
Paul Arizin
Dominique Wilkins
Elgin Baylor
Andre Iguodala
George Gervin
Chris Mullin
Marques Johnson
Cliff Hagan
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Old 08-24-2017, 11:01 AM
 
5,145 posts, read 2,763,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
I know why Boston fans feel it's the Pierce era, but in reality it was the KG era. KG took a decent Boston team to a contender. He was the clear-cut best player on all of those teams.



You can't blame it all on Pierce, but it reflects KG's importance to that team.
I'm not sure it's clear cut as you make it. KG was important, but do you see Boston winning the Championship in 2008 without Pierce? Without Allen? Also Pierce was the Finals MVP, not KG.



Quote:
Hmmm. . . more or less:

LBJ
Larry Bird
KD
Dr. J
Pippen
Rick Barry
McGrady
Adrian Dantley
James Worthy
Connie Hawkins
John Havlicek
Alex English
Paul Arizin
Dominique Wilkins
Elgin Baylor
Andre Iguodala
George Gervin
Chris Mullin
Marques Johnson
Cliff Hagan
That list is pretty good (and has many of the picks I would have put on my list), but there are some confusing picks in there.

For instance including a guy like Paul Arizin is kind of questionable to me. Unless you're 80 years old, I doubt many people actually saw Arizin play during his prime (myself included) and not many of his games were nationally televised (both the NBA and ABA were struggling to get TV contracts in that era). Not only that, he played in a totally different league with less teams and much less competition. I mean there were only 10-11 teams in the league during most of Arizin's career. So unless you're a really old guy who got to see Arizin when the Warriors were still in Philly and have some insight that me, and most NBA fans don't have, I doubt you'd find many people who would agree with Arizin > Pierce.

Hagan, I mean, how is he better at all? The guy made half as many all-star teams, worse scorer, worse EFG%, worse win share percentage... I don't see it.

T-Mac, I see him as the more TALENTED player but T-Mac only really had 7 good seasons where he wasn't playing half a season battling injuries. Unless you're totally discounting durability and longevity, then I don't see how T-Mac gets the nod over 15 solid years from Pierce considering T-Mac NEVER got out of the 1st round while Pierce is a bonafide Champion and Finals MVP.

Iggy, no. Just no. He really only had 4 seasons where he was the 1-2 option on a team (with Philly), but most of his career has been that of a defensive role player. He has won 2 rings, but only as a role player, not a primary option on a team. Only the most biased Warriors fan could honestly say Iggy legitimately had the better body of work as a SF.

Marques Johnson? I like the guy and got to watch him a lot on TV. He has the same problem as T-Mac. He had 5-6 REALLY good seasons where he was an all-star and All-NBA type of guy, but the truth of the matter is injuries destroyed his career before he turned 30. His body of work doesn't trump Pierce IMO.

Connie Hawkins spent most of his best years in the ABA in an 11 team league. Made half as many all-stars, and really only had 5 good seasons before injuries reduced him to a role player.

I think you're kind of stretching with your list and it shows with the above picks. Like I said, I don't see a legit list that pushes Paul Pierce out of the Top 20 SF if you look at his entire career and body of work and I think your list proves that. Durability and longevity matters. It just does. I think Derrick Rose and Brandon Roy were two of the best guards in the league for about 3-4 seasons. But injuries to their knees have completely taken them out of the conversation for "all-time". The same guys for guys like T-Mac, Hawkins, and Marques Johnson. If they had longer careers where they performed at their peak, maybe they would be in the discussion, but playing 5 season at your peak, then falling off? I don't see it.

Last edited by CaliRestoration; 08-24-2017 at 11:12 AM..
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Old 08-24-2017, 12:04 PM
 
167 posts, read 75,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliRestoration View Post
Can you really blame that ALL on Pierce?

Without KG all they had was Perkins and Big Baby down low to contain Dwight Howard. I actually watched that series and remember how Howard feasted down low against slow, immobile, limited Perkins, and slow, short, fat, Big Baby Davis. Howard averaged over 17 rebounds a game in that series, the MOST of any series he played in during the 2009 playoffs. Not only that, because the Celtics had no big that could stretch the floor since Perkins and Big Baby were not the shooters that KG was, the defensive schemes were much easier for the magic and it showed. Both Ray Allen and Paul Pierce had a low scoring series due to the extra defensive pressure.

Not sure I buy the logic of using the 2009 ECSF against Pierce given his teams structural disadvantages once KG was gone, while at the same time praising Melo for his performance against the Lakers in the WCF where he had all the pieces but just had a bad performance. In that series Melo was horrible. He only shot 40% for crying out loud. Also besides the first two games I disagree that the series was all that competitive, the Lakers won with the ease the last 4 games IMO.
Well the Lakers lost one of those last 4 games by 19 points and a couple more were close, so I wouldn't agree that the Lakers won the last 4 games with ease.

I think Melo was fantastic in that series. He had a bad game with 15 points on 16 shots which brought his overall stats down, but TBH you might be the first person I hear say that Melo was anything but great in that series, and I'm sure I never head before that Melo was horrible. Considering this is almost a decade after the series, it makes me think that you probably don't remember it too well.

Also I'm not sure I agree with what you just said about Perkins. He certainly was slowish but he was very strong. Wasn't this the series after which Perkins gained reputation as the guy to slow down Dwight's scoring? I don't remember the exact moment when it all started but I remember that everybody had a crush on Perkins ability to defend Dwight for a good while. At that point the conventional wisdom was that you needed a big body, a strong tough dude like Perkins on Dwight. Cleveland even got Shaq because of that logic, which was a bit comical as Shaq was indeed a big strong tough dude but he was never a defensive guy.

I don't blame Pierce for losing as such, they put up a solid fight, just he wasn't at Carmelo's level as a player at the time. He did have Ray Allen, Rondo was already great at that point, they had solid supporting cast. The talent around him was good.
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Old 08-24-2017, 12:17 PM
 
167 posts, read 75,984 times
Reputation: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
1) Melo is going to go into the HOF so nobody is saying he sucks. However, I think Pierce brought almost as much offensively while being a vastly superior defensive player.

2) I don't put much stock in one year looking at just 2 playoff series from that year.

3) Nobody is comparing Pierce to Durant or Harden...but rather to Melo.

4) I've never heard Dirk labeled a choker, I mean sure there is always one guy that might have it in for a certain player but (maybe I'm wrong) I'm not familiar with that being a mainstream thing. All big time players get crapped on until they win a championship if that's what you're getting at. Lebron got it too, so did Jordan if you're old enough to remember.
Oh Dirk got crapped plenty after the finals loss and especially later after the GSW loss, and it lasted till 2011. I would say that was definitely a mainstream thing. But as I said, I don't watch American TV. So to me, mainstream is what majority of fans say on boards like this. It may not be the same as what you call mainstream.

I won't argue on the rest because I think we've said all we were going to say. Just a correction - 3 series. Both players went to conference finals as "the man".
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Old 08-24-2017, 01:35 PM
 
5,145 posts, read 2,763,989 times
Reputation: 4710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukcha View Post
Well the Lakers lost one of those last 4 games by 19 points and a couple more were close, so I wouldn't agree that the Lakers won the last 4 games with ease.

I think Melo was fantastic in that series. He had a bad game with 15 points on 16 shots which brought his overall stats down, but TBH you might be the first person I hear say that Melo was anything but great in that series, and I'm sure I never head before that Melo was horrible. Considering this is almost a decade after the series, it makes me think that you probably don't remember it too well.
You're right, I thought I remembered the Lakers losing that first one, but it was the 2nd one. Those first two games were close though is what I remembered, and the rest of the games were blowouts of some sort which is what I remembered. But like you said, it was almost 10 years ago.

I still don't think Melo had a great series, but I can see why casual fans think he did. They look at how many points he scored but ignore he only shot 40% for the series. That to me is more telling than him scoring 27 or 25 points. If you look at Kobe during that playoffs, he never shot under 43% in any series, and he averaged 46% the entire playoffs. You aren't going to win the WCF when your top stars (Melo and Billups) are shooting 40% and under, at least I haven't seen it in the modern era.

Quote:
Also I'm not sure I agree with what you just said about Perkins. He certainly was slowish but he was very strong. Wasn't this the series after which Perkins gained reputation as the guy to slow down Dwight's scoring? I don't remember the exact moment when it all started but I remember that everybody had a crush on Perkins ability to defend Dwight for a good while. At that point the conventional wisdom was that you needed a big body, a strong tough dude like Perkins on Dwight. Cleveland even got Shaq because of that logic, which was a bit comical as Shaq was indeed a big strong tough dude but he was never a defensive guy.

I don't blame Pierce for losing as such, they put up a solid fight, just he wasn't at Carmelo's level as a player at the time. He did have Ray Allen, Rondo was already great at that point, they had solid supporting cast. The talent around him was good.
I've never heard that here but maybe in Europe they have different commentators with different opinions than stateside. Perkins has always been seen as extremely limited.

True, Perkins was strong but he had no athletic ability besides being a strong guy. He had no vertical, wasn't quick, he was just an enforcer. But the worst part is, he has no spacing effect because his range is 5 feet. So he makes everyone else's job just a bit harder on the offensive end.

He's also way under sized for a center. He's listed at 6'10", but I was actually at all of the 2008 NBA Finals games in Los Angeles and Perkins and Big Baby Davis were the same height standing next to each other with my eye (my seats were 6 rows back). Regardless, next to Dwight, they both looked slow, and extremely short.



Dwight averaged 16 PPG/17 RPG/3 blocks for the entire series. He feasted underneath, so I'm not sure where the rumor came from that Perkins somehow slowed Howard down came from.

If KG is not injured in that series, Dwight has a much harder time underneath IMO.
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Old 08-24-2017, 02:27 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,874,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliRestoration View Post
I'm not sure it's clear cut as you make it. KG was important, but do you see Boston winning the Championship in 2008 without Pierce? Without Allen? Also Pierce was the Finals MVP, not KG.

That list is pretty good (and has many of the picks I would have put on my list), but there are some confusing picks in there.

For instance including a guy like Paul Arizin is kind of questionable to me. Unless you're 80 years old, I doubt many people actually saw Arizin play during his prime (myself included) and not many of his games were nationally televised (both the NBA and ABA were struggling to get TV contracts in that era). Not only that, he played in a totally different league with less teams and much less competition. I mean there were only 10-11 teams in the league during most of Arizin's career. So unless you're a really old guy who got to see Arizin when the Warriors were still in Philly and have some insight that me, and most NBA fans don't have, I doubt you'd find many people who would agree with Arizin > Pierce.

Hagan, I mean, how is he better at all? The guy made half as many all-star teams, worse scorer, worse EFG%, worse win share percentage... I don't see it.

T-Mac, I see him as the more TALENTED player but T-Mac only really had 7 good seasons where he wasn't playing half a season battling injuries. Unless you're totally discounting durability and longevity, then I don't see how T-Mac gets the nod over 15 solid years from Pierce considering T-Mac NEVER got out of the 1st round while Pierce is a bonafide Champion and Finals MVP.

Iggy, no. Just no. He really only had 4 seasons where he was the 1-2 option on a team (with Philly), but most of his career has been that of a defensive role player. He has won 2 rings, but only as a role player, not a primary option on a team. Only the most biased Warriors fan could honestly say Iggy legitimately had the better body of work as a SF.

Marques Johnson? I like the guy and got to watch him a lot on TV. He has the same problem as T-Mac. He had 5-6 REALLY good seasons where he was an all-star and All-NBA type of guy, but the truth of the matter is injuries destroyed his career before he turned 30. His body of work doesn't trump Pierce IMO.

Connie Hawkins spent most of his best years in the ABA in an 11 team league. Made half as many all-stars, and really only had 5 good seasons before injuries reduced him to a role player.

I think you're kind of stretching with your list and it shows with the above picks. Like I said, I don't see a legit list that pushes Paul Pierce out of the Top 20 SF if you look at his entire career and body of work and I think your list proves that. Durability and longevity matters. It just does. I think Derrick Rose and Brandon Roy were two of the best guards in the league for about 3-4 seasons. But injuries to their knees have completely taken them out of the conversation for "all-time". The same guys for guys like T-Mac, Hawkins, and Marques Johnson. If they had longer careers where they performed at their peak, maybe they would be in the discussion, but playing 5 season at your peak, then falling off? I don't see it.
I'll gladly admit that there are some players I could never see here who I am relying on statistics and awards to evaluate--such is the nature of the All-Time Greats list.

Hawkins' didn't have lengthy success, but he shone brightly at his best.

Iguodala gets a lot of disrespect--I think it stems from the 76ers expecting him to replace AI. He's been a versatile, high IQ, winning player for a long period of time. He is one of the best wing defenders of his generation. He's something of a modern Scottie Pippen.
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Old 08-24-2017, 06:44 PM
 
51,928 posts, read 41,791,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukcha View Post
Oh Dirk got crapped plenty after the finals loss and especially later after the GSW loss, and it lasted till 2011. I would say that was definitely a mainstream thing. But as I said, I don't watch American TV. So to me, mainstream is what majority of fans say on boards like this. It may not be the same as what you call mainstream.

I won't argue on the rest because I think we've said all we were going to say. Just a correction - 3 series. Both players went to conference finals as "the man".
Yeah, Dirk got crapped on. It's part and parcel of being "the man". But since 2011 in ended .

When they win a championship they get all the credit, when they lose they get all the blame....regardless of reality.

Been that way for every elite player.
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Old 08-24-2017, 06:54 PM
 
Location: SW MO
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Always liked Paul. Shaq didn't call him the "Truth" for nothing. Probably first ballot HOFer. Biggest criticism I can have of him is I never really viewed him as a true leader. Antoine Walker was a more dominant personality on the earlier Celtics teams, and KG became the face of the franchise in the title year. Pierce was competitive and had great longevity, though. There wasn't any facet of his game that he was particularly bad at.
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Old 08-25-2017, 11:57 AM
 
5,145 posts, read 2,763,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
I'll gladly admit that there are some players I could never see here who I am relying on statistics and awards to evaluate--such is the nature of the All-Time Greats list.

Hawkins' didn't have lengthy success, but he shone brightly at his best.

Iguodala gets a lot of disrespect--I think it stems from the 76ers expecting him to replace AI. He's been a versatile, high IQ, winning player for a long period of time. He is one of the best wing defenders of his generation. He's something of a modern Scottie Pippen.
I like Iggy a lot, he is an extremely talented wing/perimeter defender, but how many seasons was he ever a teams #1 option? Tony Allen is also a great perimeter defender, but I don't see anyone trying to compare him to Kobe. Iggy was the 76ers top option for MAYBE 3-4 seasons and then the remainder of his career he carved out a niche as a bench/6th man which, no disrespect, is great for him, but I don't think anyone in the Top 20 SF all-time should be just a role player.

Scottie or Paul Pierce were never role playing, coming off the bench guys for a large portion of their careers like Iggy.
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