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Old 08-22-2017, 10:15 AM
 
5,152 posts, read 2,772,564 times
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With the stunning news that Pierce's "jersey retirement" game next season (Feb.11 Celtics vs the Cavs) now has the highest average price per ticket per StubHub, can we examine how good Paul Pierce was?



Here are some of his highlight accomplishments.

- 10x All Star
- 2008 NBA Champ
- 4x All-NBA
- 1998-99 All-Rookie
- 2007-08 Finals MVP
- 26,397 career points, #15 All Time

Career: 19.7 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 3.5 AST, .445 FG%, .368 3PT%, .806 FT%

My take:

I'll say definite first ballot HOF.

Probably Top 20 Small forward all-time.

In the Top 100 All-Time.

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Old 08-22-2017, 11:15 AM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,877,378 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliRestoration View Post
With the stunning news that Pierce's "jersey retirement" game next season (Feb.11 Celtics vs the Cavs) now has the highest average price per ticket per StubHub, can we examine how good Paul Pierce was?

Here are some of his highlight accomplishments.

- 10x All Star
- 2008 NBA Champ
- 4x All-NBA
- 1998-99 All-Rookie
- 2007-08 Finals MVP
- 26,397 career points, #15 All Time

Career: 19.7 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 3.5 AST, .445 FG%, .368 3PT%, .806 FT%

My take:

I'll say definite first ballot HOF.

Probably Top 20 Small forward all-time.

In the Top 100 All-Time.
He probably will make it on the first ballot. I've think he's overrated. I definitely would not call him a top 20 SF of all-time. Top 100 player? On the fringes.
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Old 08-22-2017, 01:18 PM
 
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I do see him get overrated sometimes, he's a likable persona and his edginess appeals to neutral fans.
He was never an MVP contender, probably never a top 5 player in the league.

But IMO calling him a top 20 SF is not overrating him at all.

As currently stands he is no.18 on the all time scoring list, a champion and a Finals MVP. Who are the 20 better small forwards? Who are 100 (or near) better players?

I might be able to think of 10 small forwards who were better / had better careers, but I doubt that I would think of 20.
He's ahead of folks like English, Dantley, he was better and achieved more. He should also be ahead of a Bernard King or Grant Hill, because while he maybe wasn't better than them, he achieved much more.

Small forwards whom I'd rank higher:
LeBron,
Durant,
Tmac,
Melo,
Barry,
Dr J,
Pippen,
Kawhi (projecting),
Baylor,
Havlicek,
Paul George (maybe, projecting again),
Nique,
Bird (or McHale, if you consider Bird a PF),
Gervin,
also maybe Worthy and Chris Mullin (Worthy IMO wasn't as good, but he achieved more, while Mullin is the oposite, IMO better than Pierce but achieved less)

So I came up with 16 people, and I think I'm quite stretching it there, I included a number of close calls. I'd say he's on the edge of top 10, probably just outside.
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Old 08-22-2017, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,263,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
He probably will make it on the first ballot. I've think he's overrated. I definitely would not call him a top 20 SF of all-time. Top 100 player? On the fringes.
I would agree that he's on the fringes of the Top 100. To put things in perspective, there are 70 players who have made the All NBA First or Second Team at least 4 times. Pierce only made it once (Second Team). The remainder of his selections were to the Third Team, which didn't exist until the 88-89 season.

Good player, for sure, but I think he's one of those guys we will have semi-forgotten about in 20 years.
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Old 08-22-2017, 01:39 PM
 
Location: spring tx
7,912 posts, read 8,202,672 times
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this list has him at #7 on the all time best SF list

B/R NBA Legends 100: Ranking the Greatest Small Forwards of All Time | Bleacher Report

#10 on this one
https://hoopshabit.com/2014/12/04/nb...wards-time/22/

and #9 here
Ranking 70 Greatest Small Forwards in NBA History | Orlando Magic
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:16 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,877,378 times
Reputation: 2263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukcha View Post
I do see him get overrated sometimes, he's a likable persona and his edginess appeals to neutral fans.
He was never an MVP contender, probably never a top 5 player in the league.

But IMO calling him a top 20 SF is not overrating him at all.

As currently stands he is no.18 on the all time scoring list, a champion and a Finals MVP. Who are the 20 better small forwards? Who are 100 (or near) better players?

I might be able to think of 10 small forwards who were better / had better careers, but I doubt that I would think of 20.
He's ahead of folks like English, Dantley, he was better and achieved more. He should also be ahead of a Bernard King or Grant Hill, because while he maybe wasn't better than them, he achieved much more.

Small forwards whom I'd rank higher:
LeBron,
Durant,
Tmac,
Melo,
Barry,
Dr J,
Pippen,
Kawhi (projecting),
Baylor,
Havlicek,
Paul George (maybe, projecting again),
Nique,
Bird (or McHale, if you consider Bird a PF),
Gervin,
also maybe Worthy and Chris Mullin (Worthy IMO wasn't as good, but he achieved more, while Mullin is the oposite, IMO better than Pierce but achieved less)

So I came up with 16 people, and I think I'm quite stretching it there, I included a number of close calls. I'd say he's on the edge of top 10, probably just outside.
I think both Worthy and Mullin are better than Pierce.

I don't see how yo can have him ahead of Dantley.

English is closer, but I don't see that, either. If you want to count Barkley as an SF, he belongs above Pierce. Connie Hawkins is a tough one: a short career, but his star burned a lot brighter than Pierce's.

Grant Hill is about on par--he was a superior talent with injuries that kept him from reaching his potential. I think Pierce's career is more impressive than King's, though King, too, was a more talented player whose career was derailed by injury.

And a couple of guys who I can only analyze by numbers: Cliff Hagan (6x All-star, 19.8 career PER), Marques Johnson (5x All-star, career PER of 20.1), Paul Arizin (10x All-star--every year he played, 19.7 PER, Bailey Howell (6x All-star, career PER of 19.1).

I would say that Andre Iguodala is a better SF than Pierce. Vince Carter, too.

What about Bruce Bowen & Shane Battier?

I think Pierce is better than Melo.

I think Kirilenko & Shawn Marion are similar caliber players (better defenders, but not as good on offense).
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Old 08-22-2017, 03:21 PM
 
167 posts, read 76,149 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
I think both Worthy and Mullin are better than Pierce.

I don't see how yo can have him ahead of Dantley.

English is closer, but I don't see that, either. If you want to count Barkley as an SF, he belongs above Pierce. Connie Hawkins is a tough one: a short career, but his star burned a lot brighter than Pierce's.

Grant Hill is about on par--he was a superior talent with injuries that kept him from reaching his potential. I think Pierce's career is more impressive than King's, though King, too, was a more talented player whose career was derailed by injury.

And a couple of guys who I can only analyze by numbers: Cliff Hagan (6x All-star, 19.8 career PER), Marques Johnson (5x All-star, career PER of 20.1), Paul Arizin (10x All-star--every year he played, 19.7 PER, Bailey Howell (6x All-star, career PER of 19.1).

I would say that Andre Iguodala is a better SF than Pierce. Vince Carter, too.

What about Bruce Bowen & Shane Battier?

I think Pierce is better than Melo.

I think Kirilenko & Shawn Marion are similar caliber players (better defenders, but not as good on offense).
Vince was mostly a SG, Barkley was mostly a PF, Iguodala and Bowen were never on Pierce's level.

Marion is a bit closer but also wouldn't pick him over Pierce, and Pierce has achieved much more, both in individual awards and in team context.

Marques Johnson was quite good but there's a reason why he's not in the hall of fame, his achievements would make him only about 7-8th small forward of the 80s.

I've never seen or don't remember seeing the 1950s, 1960s players you mentioned, the big name there is Arizin. He collected many of those awards when the league was still basically segregated, there were less than 5 non-white people in the league in some of the 1950s years. I just don't rank 1950s players at all. Even 1960s, 1970s are a bit iffy, I'm only comfortable to talk about players that I have seen and can judge somewhat, because the NBA was a small time league, basketball was a small sport, the talent pool wasn't deep, and for some of the 1970s it was split into two leagues, therefore being a top 10 player today is more impressive than being a top 10 player in 1970. But I do like some of the old players, in particular Rick Barry and Elgin Baylor among SFs.

Dantley played no defense, was a ball hog and didn't achieve much. I think he's a top 20 SF, but he's essentially a worse version of Melo who was helped by the era being more suitable to that Melo skillset.

I think English was a better player than Dantley and achieved more, but Pierce achieved even more and is a more well rounded player, therefore I'd rank him higher than English.

I think Melo is a better player than Pierce and I think Melo's 2009 run with the Nuggets is as impressive as Pierce's runs, so I would pick Melo over Pierce for that reason.

Grant Hill certainly was hyped more than Pierce -- but part of that was that he was a nice well spoken guy and the NBA desperately needed a nice well spoken role model to fix the image of the league. He was overhyped. He didn't achieve much in Detroit, he was maybe a better offensive player than Pierce in his prime. In Phoenix, he played lockdown defense. He didn't in Detroit. As you say, he was probably a more talented player than Pierce, but never quite put it all together at the same time, and lost most of his prime to injuries. At best, he's a borderline hall of famer while Pierce is a clear hall of famer.
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Old 08-22-2017, 07:24 PM
 
51,994 posts, read 41,835,728 times
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Don't forget, Pierce played DEFENSE. A lot of people refuse to factor that in but would love a guy that put up more points with a worse fg% and poor defense. *shrug*

EASY HOFer first ballot, I'm sure most of us agree on that point.

As for all-time ranking it's high enough of a number that it's not worth quibbling about if it's 60 or 80 or 100 etc.
I'm not going to put any energy into that discussion because it's so incredibly loose.
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Old 08-22-2017, 08:46 PM
 
3,794 posts, read 1,384,791 times
Reputation: 1603
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chukcha View Post
I do see him get overrated sometimes, he's a likable persona and his edginess appeals to neutral fans.
He was never an MVP contender, probably never a top 5 player in the league.

But IMO calling him a top 20 SF is not overrating him at all.

As currently stands he is no.18 on the all time scoring list, a champion and a Finals MVP. Who are the 20 better small forwards? Who are 100 (or near) better players?

I might be able to think of 10 small forwards who were better / had better careers, but I doubt that I would think of 20.
He's ahead of folks like English, Dantley, he was better and achieved more. He should also be ahead of a Bernard King or Grant Hill, because while he maybe wasn't better than them, he achieved much more.

Small forwards whom I'd rank higher:
LeBron,
Durant,
Tmac,
Melo,
Barry,
Dr J,
Pippen,
Kawhi (projecting),
Baylor,
Havlicek,
Paul George (maybe, projecting again),
Nique,
Bird (or McHale, if you consider Bird a PF),
Gervin,
also maybe Worthy and Chris Mullin (Worthy IMO wasn't as good, but he achieved more, while Mullin is the oposite, IMO better than Pierce but achieved less)

So I came up with 16 people, and I think I'm quite stretching it there, I included a number of close calls. I'd say he's on the edge of top 10, probably just outside.


He took his team to the ECF way before he played with Ray Allen and KG so I think he is better than T-Mac. Tracy was the franchise player and never could lead his team to the second round.
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Old 08-22-2017, 10:21 PM
 
5,152 posts, read 2,772,564 times
Reputation: 4719
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
He probably will make it on the first ballot. I've think he's overrated. I definitely would not call him a top 20 SF of all-time. Top 100 player? On the fringes.
I honestly cannot put together more than 15 names I'd clearly rank over Pierce at SF. Can you tell me what your top 20 sf list looks like?
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