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Old 09-27-2017, 12:13 PM
 
2,838 posts, read 1,780,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I honestly don't see what he brings to the table compared to what they lost. In Kyrie, they lost an elite, otherworldly scorer who is typically apathetic about defense but can be passable when required. In Wade, they gain a faded, past his prime player with no long range jumper and lagging defense. In Rose, you get a diminished star also past his prime with no long range jumper and questionable defense. In IT, you get an injured, undersized scorer with bad defense.

I know some Cavs fans will say "Yeah, but our bench is way stronger," and while I agree that Crowder or Wade is a decent bench replacement, none of those guys are good replacements in their starting lineup. Would you really prefer to have IT, Rose or Wade in the 4th quarter against the Warriors over Kyrie?

Rose and Wade sorta cancel each other out IMO. They are both more ball-dominant ISO scorers with limited shooting range so I don't see how you can play both at the same time. You also can't play either one with IT because that means you'll have at least 2 subpar defenders on the floor at the same time.
I'm inclined to say this makes the Cavs a better regular season team- the over under is 51 wins - I'd take the over all day everyday. I think you will see the Cavs overachieve and the Celtics underachieve in regard to the regular season but I'm not sold on the makeup of the Celtics.


Playoff team I don't know.


I think you will see a more productive Kevin Love without Kyrie. I don't think the two meshed well on the court. You have some better bench pieces and the Cavs more or less lost Game 3 of Finals because they ran out of steam with their 7 man rotation- they should have been able to go 8 or at least 9- now they do that easily. I love what Crowder can do. Jeff Green is an intriguing piece that I think becomes a little more valuable against the Warriors.


My concern...Kyrie essentially wore our Klay in 17 and Curry in 16 with his offensive prowess. YOU HAVE TO GET PHYSICAL AND MAKE THOSE GUYS WORK ON DEFENSIVE END or there shots fall too easily. Kyrie was a gigantic piece on offense that made those two work on the other end. Can the Cavs get enough from guys 2-9 collectively to replace Kyrie on the offensive end in an NBA FINALs scenario??? Also, besides no significant injuries - My leap of Faith here is Tristan Thompson 16 or ECF 2017 shows up and not Tristan Thompson Finals 17.
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,263,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
I don't see how anybody thinks Cleveland isn't better. I don't really care about Rose. But we gained Rose, Thomas, Crowder, Osman, and Wade in exchange for really just Kyrie. This is a better team, not just deeper, but it's a better team. It's inarguable...
The only real value in that trade is Crowder. And he's still a reserve.

Kyrie was of supreme value against the Warriors because he was the Cavs' greatest offensive threat. IT isn't as good as Kyrie offensively and he somehow manages to be worse defensively. Whereas Kyrie could improve his defense against the Warriors through sheer effort, there's only so much effort can do for you at 5'9. The Warriors can and will hunt him down.

Knicks fans were not sad to see Rose leave. Without his athleticism, he's a shadow of the player he used to be. I mean, we are talking about a guy who shot 21.7% from 3 last year and had one of the worst defensive ratings in the NBA among guards. So he doesn't bring 3 point shooting or defense to the table, which are the two things the Cavs need if they want to even think about competing with the Dubs this year. No one has even brought up the fact that Rose is injury prone.

I guess the question is whether a few solid role players and washed up scorers make up for the absence of one of the elite scorers in the game today. I say the Cavs are worse equipped to deal with the Warriors than they were a year ago, but only time will tell.
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:38 PM
 
Location: California
1,191 posts, read 1,287,200 times
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I wonder how Lue will manage LeBron's minutes this season. No way he can play the number of minutes he did last season. And for the team to be effective with LeBron resting more the "LeBron sets everyone up" offense won't cut it. For the Cavs to challenge the Warriors their offense needs an overhaul. On defense Crowder is a good. But looking at their roster no one else really is. Even LeBron has noticeably slipped.

One thing the Cavs have going for them is they play in the East. But I think that worked against them last season. They rolled through the East playoffs so easily they weren't prepared for Golden State's onslaught. All of this to say Wade can help on the margins. But I don't think he moves the needle much as this stage of his career.
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,263,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastcoastbias View Post
I'm inclined to say this makes the Cavs a better regular season team- the over under is 51 wins - I'd take the over all day everyday. I think you will see the Cavs overachieve and the Celtics underachieve in regard to the regular season but I'm not sold on the makeup of the Celtics.


Playoff team I don't know.
I couldn't care much about the regular season. I'm talking about the playoffs and more specifically a matchup against Golden State.

BTW, how many offers did Rose receive this off-season?

In theory, Wade or Rose coming in behind a starter and making a solid contribution a la Manu Ginobili sounds like a good idea. In practice, I don't think it works out that well because they will be subbing in for a player that will be far inferior to Kyrie Irving. There's nobody on the roster they can hand the ball to and say "Here, score." Kyrie has proven to be a near unstoppable scorer in the clutch and he has a knack for making both Steph and Klay look silly. I don't see how Old Wade + Diminished Rose makes up for that absence of talent. To me, it's like the Warriors giving up KD and getting back Bogut, Barbosa, Ezeli and Speights so they can be "deeper." Sure, you add some more depth in theory, but we all know most of those guys will be bench warmers when rotations shorten in the post-season.

I agree with you on Crowder. That's a good addition. Not so much on Jeff Green. He's billed as this large, skilled two-way player, but he's not that impressive tbh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eastcoastbias View Post
Can the Cavs get enough from guys 2-9 collectively to replace Kyrie on the offensive end in an NBA FINALs scenario???
With their current roster, no. Not unless they can find a time machine and get the 2008 Wade and the 2011 Rose.
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,263,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliDude1 View Post
All of this to say Wade can help on the margins. But I don't think he moves the needle much as this stage of his career.
Watching Wade right now is a lot like watching Roy Jones, Jr. during his decline. Two guys blessed with extraordinary explosiveness and athleticism who now look completely mortal without their superpowers. Wade has ailing knees, he's slow, and he barely even bothers to close out on shooters these days. Not closing out on Golden State's shooters may be a wee bit of a problem. Those guys are known to shoot a few threes here and there.

When heroes lose their powers:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2dz8W134X8
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:58 PM
 
5,446 posts, read 1,550,803 times
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I'm far more impressed with Rose than I am with Wade.
Rose is absolutely awesome at getting to the basket and finishing, hence his .471 shooting last season (that's 2.6% better than his MVP year).
For a guy that has been injured so much, its interesting that he's still an incredible slasher (minus the dunking) while the thing that he's lost more than anything is the mid-range jump shot (and the 3-pointers, but they were never great to begin with).
Last season I found Rose a lot more entertaining than Wade, and its a pity we won't see Rose on the court nearly as much now that Wade is in Cleveland.
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Old 09-27-2017, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Akron, OH
1,616 posts, read 1,593,077 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastcoastbias View Post
I'm inclined to say this makes the Cavs a better regular season team- the over under is 51 wins - I'd take the over all day everyday. I think you will see the Cavs overachieve and the Celtics underachieve in regard to the regular season but I'm not sold on the makeup of the Celtics.


Playoff team I don't know.


I think you will see a more productive Kevin Love without Kyrie. I don't think the two meshed well on the court. You have some better bench pieces and the Cavs more or less lost Game 3 of Finals because they ran out of steam with their 7 man rotation- they should have been able to go 8 or at least 9- now they do that easily. I love what Crowder can do. Jeff Green is an intriguing piece that I think becomes a little more valuable against the Warriors.


My concern...Kyrie essentially wore our Klay in 17 and Curry in 16 with his offensive prowess. YOU HAVE TO GET PHYSICAL AND MAKE THOSE GUYS WORK ON DEFENSIVE END or there shots fall too easily. Kyrie was a gigantic piece on offense that made those two work on the other end. Can the Cavs get enough from guys 2-9 collectively to replace Kyrie on the offensive end in an NBA FINALs scenario??? Also, besides no significant injuries - My leap of Faith here is Tristan Thompson 16 or ECF 2017 shows up and not Tristan Thompson Finals 17.
I've been saying this for years. If Cleveland makes it to the finals, Steph & Klay can breathe a little easier. Kyrie was a difficult matchup for them.
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Old 09-27-2017, 01:41 PM
 
2,838 posts, read 1,780,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I couldn't care much about the regular season. I'm talking about the playoffs and more specifically a matchup against Golden State.

BTW, how many offers did Rose receive this off-season?

In theory, Wade or Rose coming in behind a starter and making a solid contribution a la Manu Ginobili sounds like a good idea. In practice, I don't think it works out that well because they will be subbing in for a player that will be far inferior to Kyrie Irving. There's nobody on the roster they can hand the ball to and say "Here, score." Kyrie has proven to be a near unstoppable scorer in the clutch and he has a knack for making both Steph and Klay look silly. I don't see how Old Wade + Diminished Rose makes up for that absence of talent. To me, it's like the Warriors giving up KD and getting back Bogut, Barbosa, Ezeli and Speights so they can be "deeper." Sure, you add some more depth in theory, but we all know most of those guys will be bench warmers when rotations shorten in the post-season.

I agree with you on Crowder. That's a good addition. Not so much on Jeff Green. He's billed as this large, skilled two-way player, but he's not that impressive tbh.



With their current roster, no. Not unless they can find a time machine and get the 2008 Wade and the 2011 Rose.
First things first...
I agree- you are talking to a Cavs fan- you go to the Finals for the past three years considering anything less is unacceptable, but I don't think getting there should be taken for granted EVER I don't care what people think about the rest of the East. And the Warriors still have to avoid injury, and they have to keep that fire they had this past season lit because OKC and Houston are no walk in the park.


The "here, score" approach you talk of- is not a sound approach against the Warriors. You can't have a dribbler/shot clock depleting/scorer for stretches of the game and beat them. You got to be balanced. I think this trade allows that.

But to support what you say...
I agree whole heartedly on Kyrie's impact on Steph and Klay. For crying out loud we had Warrior fans in here talking about how great Thompson was on defense - if he was great Kyrie was out of this World.


So really on both hands you can say the Cavs are hard to defend.


There are way too many focused on Rose or Wade- they aren't making up for Kyrie- every person with a brain knows that. The discussion should be on Crowder+Wade+Rose+Green and god willing a healthy pissed off I. Thomas.


The discussion starts with Lebron another year at his elite level with the five I mentioned above, maybe Love with a better role on this team and focused T. Thompson vs. the Warriors. Enough or not enough to early too tell.
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:27 PM
 
5,446 posts, read 1,550,803 times
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LeBron, Rose and Wade are all slashers, except LeBron can shoot better than them.
But LeBron will do less spotting-up than Wade/Rose, so its not a great fit.
They need Thomas to be in that line-up because he can do similar things to Kyrie, score from all ranges.
I think OKC is a smarter line-up, with a lot more cohesive potential and versatility.
George and Melo can spot-up and hit from everywhere, and Westbrook is the best penetrator in the NBA.
Plus I think Adams is extremely tough, ideal for the playoffs.
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
12,187 posts, read 10,378,713 times
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Imagine people looking at this lineup a few years ago and then being told they aren't the favorites to win it all lol

Lebron
Rose
Wade
Thomas
Love
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