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Al Horford is not the best player on that team by any objective measure. To be sure, he's a valuable player, but Scottie Pippen was also a valuable player. Being valuable doesn't mean you're the most valuable player on your team.
I mean, if you consider Al Horford to be the best player on the Celtics despite his mediocre numbers (13.6 ppg and 8.2 boards), then you should also consider Draymond Green the best player on the Warriors despite having worse statistical numbers than Stephen Curry. Draymond had even better numbers than Horford on that 73 win team (14.0 ppg, 9.2 boards, 7.4 assists) and we all know he's a complete monster on defense. If the argument is that Horford is the best simply because the Celtics can't win without him, then that logic should extend to Draymond as well since the Warriors are clearly a worse off team when he's not playing.
You could say that Kyrie isn't as valuable as Horford since the Cs won the single game where Kyrie was out, but couldn't we equally say that Steph isn't as valuable as Draymond since the Warriors blew out the Rockets and went up 2-0 on Portland without Curry? Let's be real, neither of these players is bringing LBJ-like value to their teams. Their respective teams are better with them but more than adequate without them.
Horford has more impact on winning than Kyrie. He is a more complete player than Kyrie. And he creates more problems for opponents than Kyrie. Horford's impact on the Cs and the Hawks before them translates into wins. He is a great screener, a threat to roll or pop, and excellent passer, and has top-notch IQ on offense and defense. Kyrie is a better scorer and ball handler. Re-read those links.
Curry has a greater impact on winning than Draymond (who is a great player). Your link is in reference to one game. Draymond is a better player than Horford, but not a better player than Curry.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
Agreed. KD is more efficient because his team is better. No surprise there. I still don't see how we get to Curry being better seeing that KD has won multiple scoring titles and even won an MVP in a year when Westbrook was injured.
In addition to being the best scorer in the game today, Durant is multiple times better than Curry defensively. Not sure how we can ignore this in a discussion of who's "better." The Warriors can run a small ball lineup without Curry but it's virtually impossible for them to do so without Durant since he's their best rim protector. He can match up against positions 1-5 whereas Curry can only match up against positions 1-2 at best.
KD is more efficient because of the defensive attention Curry draws. Curry has two MVPs, including the only unanimous MVP in league history. Curry has averaged at least 6.6 assists each of the last 5 seasons (and consistently leads the league in hockey assists). KD has never in his career averaged 6. Curry has consistently been a more efficient scorer than KD: Curry's career eFG is .575 to KD's .537; Curry's career TS% is .617 to Durant's .609.
Curry is a better defender than you give him credit for. The Warriors ran a small ball lineup very consistently (and successfully) before KD arrived. Watch Curry defensively. He spends plenty of time on 3s. He directs ball handlers into the help defense. He disrupts opponents' dribbling and passing lanes. He has high IQ and covers his assignments. He is a good defender. KD is capable of playing elite defense. He is also prone to defensive lapses.
I have no idea what you are basing this statement off of.
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Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge
He is a more complete player than Kyrie.
Yeah, in the sense that he outrebounds Kyrie and can guard bigger players, which is only natural because he's a forward and not a guard. It's silly to make the argument that one is more "complete" than the other because they play different positions and have different roles. But if you're going to make that argument, then the same argument applies to Curry-Green. Draymond is a much more complete player than Steph Curry. So does that make him better?
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Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge
Curry is a better defender than you give him credit for.
That has nothing to do with I said. I said that KD is not only the best scorer in the NBA, but he's also a much better defender than Curry. Are you really going to dispute that Durant is a much better defender than Curry? How can Curry be the better player between the two when Durant has a better offensive game and a significantly better defensive game? Don't even bring up "playmaking" since Curry is nothing on the order of a John Stockton or Jason Kidd. The Warriors don't run a point guard heavy offense and Curry is not the one initiating the offense most of the time anyway.
The difference between Curry and Durant is that the former can be shut down. The Thunder and the Cavs proved you can do this with very physical play. The whole point of getting Durant was that the Warriors would have a go-to option in ISO situations when defenses stymie their ball movement.
This matters because defenses can run Curry off the 3 point line and deny him the ball. Sure, you can double the post too, but the ability to score from the post gives you more options than simply being able to shoot or drive.
I have no idea what you are basing this statement off of.
I offered three links and a description. You edited my description out of the quote, but I'll restate: "He is a great screener, a threat to roll or pop, and excellent passer, and has top-notch IQ on offense and defense. Kyrie is a better scorer and ball handler. Re-read those links."
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
Yeah, in the sense that he outrebounds Kyrie and can guard bigger players, which is only natural because he's a forward and not a guard. It's silly to make the argument that one is more "complete" than the other because they play different positions and have different roles. But if you're going to make that argument, then the same argument applies to Curry-Green. Draymond is a much more complete player than Steph Curry. So does that make him better?
In the sense that he makes smarter plays, sets elite screens, draws bigs out of the paint, passes better, and plays elite defense.
Curry is a better player than Draymond. He is a top 2 player. Draymond is the best defender in the league, and he does a lot of things well. Curry does a lot of things well, too--and he does a lot of things (passing, shooting, dribbling, driving, pushing in transition, shooting off the dribble) at an elite level. He does so many things at an elite level that NBA defenses break down trying to slow him down.
Of course players at different positions have different roles. But it is also clearly true that some players are better than others. LeBron can't do what Andre Drummond does, but LBJ is a better player than Drummond.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
That has nothing to do with I said. I said that KD is not only the best scorer in the NBA, but he's also a much better defender than Curry. Are you really going to dispute that Durant is a much better defender than Curry? How can Curry be the better player between the two when Durant has a better offensive game and a significantly better defensive game? Don't even bring up "playmaking" since Curry is nothing on the order of a John Stockton or Jason Kidd. The Warriors don't run a point guard heavy offense and Curry is not the one initiating the offense most of the time anyway.
Curry has a better offensive game than Durant. You are mistaken if you think Curry's playmaking is not worth bringing up. Curry is not only an elite passer in his own right, but he sees multiple steps ahead of his own passes. He is constantly setting up his teammates to get assists--partly because of the defensive attention he draws, and partly because his high IQ recognizes where the gaps in the defense will be as he is making plays.
Watch the Warriors offense when Curry sits versus when he's in. They go from the best offense in league history to an average NBA squad. While the Warriors run plenty of motion plays (and Curry is an excellent screener), they also run the pick & roll--a pick & roll that is unstoppable when the ball is in Curry's hands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
The difference between Curry and Durant is that the former can be shut down. The Thunder and the Cavs proved you can do this with very physical play. The whole point of getting Durant was that the Warriors would have a go-to option in ISO situations when defenses stymie their ball movement.
By Thunder, are you referring to the '15-'16 WCF? When Curry averaged 28 & 6 while outshooting Klay, KD, & Russ? If Curry's 28 & 6 on better shooting is "shut down" then apparently KD can also be "shut down." Or are you referring to a single game in November this year?
By Cavs, are you referring to '14-'15? When Curry put up 26 & 6? Or '15-'16, when he put up 22 & 4, or '16-'17, when he put up 27 & 9? It doesn't look to me like the Cavs have any answer for Curry. IT is unlikely to help. KD is a great go-to option in ISO situations. Down the stretch of closeout game 5, the Warriors went with a Curry-KD pick & roll play after play. It was unstoppable.
This matters because defenses can run Curry off the 3 point line and deny him the ball. Sure, you can double the post too, but the ability to score from the post gives you more options than simply being able to shoot or drive.
I see, it is simple for defenses to defend Curry. That must be why he has led the best offense in the league for the last 3 years, working on #4. Curry shoots, drives, and shoots off the dribble. He can dribble in traffic like Nash. He does not need a post scoring game.
Agreed. KD is more efficient because his team is better. No surprise there. I still don't see how we get to Curry being better seeing that KD has won multiple scoring titles and even won an MVP in a year when Westbrook was injured.
In addition to being the best scorer in the game today, Durant is multiple times better than Curry defensively. Not sure how we can ignore this in a discussion of who's "better." The Warriors can run a small ball lineup without Curry but it's virtually impossible for them to do so without Durant since he's their best rim protector. He can match up against positions 1-5 whereas Curry can only match up against positions 1-2 at best.
Yeah, I wasn't even going to touch defense but I thought about it but didn't want to create a run-on counter post.
The vast majority of the league thinks Durant is the better player. It's not even close.
If someone else wants to have a different opinion then so be it.
The difference between Curry and Durant is that the former can be shut down. The Thunder and the Cavs proved you can do this with very physical play. The whole point of getting Durant was that the Warriors would have a go-to option in ISO situations when defenses stymie their ball movement.
The whole point of getting Durant was because he was a top 2-3 player in the league and getting him meant he didn't either stay on the team that just took you to 7 games or end up on the Spurs, Cleveland etc.
My guy Bridge is getting out of control with his Warriors and Curry fandom again. We can count on this at least two more times this season...
Straight to the point, Durant is a better player than Curry, and has always been a better player than Curry. It's not particularly close, as there's a considerable gap between Durant and every player beneath his level, and everybody knows it...
Horford is not nearly the player Krie is, stop kidding yourself...
Durant may be a better individual player than Curry, but the Warriors' +/- is always higher when Curry is on the court vs Durant, including last year's Finals. Whether he fits in better with the Warrior system or is a better team player over all is debatable, but it's been a consistent stat from last year up to now.
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