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Old 12-26-2017, 04:17 PM
 
5,444 posts, read 1,550,803 times
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^ Michael Jordan and Olajuwon are the 2 best players of the 1990s, head and shoulders above the rest.
Malone and Stockton were not champions.
They faltered when it mattered most, and that is the opposite of a champion.
If LeBron's career had ended in 2011, his career would be no better than their careers.

BTW winning an MVP when you aren't even a championship contender, doesn't prove you are the best in the game.
I didn't consider Jordan the best in the game when he won his first MVP in 1988 (even though many believed he was the best).
I considered Magic Johnson the best in the game at that stage.

As I said in my earlier post-
2000-2010 belonged to Shaq, Duncan, Kobe with a sprinkling of KG and Wade.

And you can't look at awards to assess this, for example everybody knows Billups was not your typical Finals MVP, as that Detroit team was not reliant on a singular player.
And everybody knows Nash was not the best player in the NBA, despite his MVPs.
But the one award-based criteria I will factor in, is championships (but that doesn't mean everyone who wins a championship is among the best players of the decade - again Billups is not).

Last edited by MAGAalot; 12-26-2017 at 04:38 PM..
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Old 12-26-2017, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,214 posts, read 2,836,706 times
Reputation: 4507
Quote:
Originally Posted by amenalot View Post
^ Michael Jordan and Olajuwon are the 2 best players of the 1990s, head and shoulders above the rest.
Malone and Stockton were not champions.
They faltered when it mattered most, and that is the opposite of a champion.
If LeBron's career had ended in 2011, his career would be no better than their careers.

BTW winning an MVP when you aren't even a championship contender, doesn't prove you are the best in the game.
I didn't consider Jordan the best in the game when he won his first MVP in 1988 (even though many believed he was the best).
I considered Magic Johnson the best in the game at that stage.

As I said in my earlier post-
2000-2010 belonged to Shaq, Duncan, Kobe with a sprinkling of KG and Wade.

And you can't look at awards to assess this, for example everybody knows Billups was not your typical Finals MVP, as that Detroit team was not reliant on a singular player.
And everybody knows Nash was not the best player in the NBA, despite his MVPs.
But the one award-based criteria I will factor in, is championships (but that doesn't mean everyone who wins a championship is among the best players of the decade - again Billups is not).
You're talking in circles now...

Your initial statement was "you have to win a ring to be in the conversation". When I pointed out the flimsiness of that declaration (Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, and Paul Pierce all won Finals MVP That decade, and not one of them is a Top 10 player for the decade), now it doesn't matter unless you're a championship contender. For the record, the last three years of the decade Lebron was a contender and carried a talent-poor team to The Finals once. Wade has never taken a team without a definitive 2nd option past the first round, something Lebron did repeatedly at the close of that decade...

We can throw out any awards you want to talk about, but if you're going to declare a Top 10 of the 2000s and exclude Lebron, and/or place Lebron behind Wade, I question your basketball IQ. Wade won a championship and still probably doesn't make the Top 10 of that decade, though he's probably not far out of it. LeBron didn't win a championship and clearly by Year 2 established himself as a Top 10 player in The Association, after The Finals run in '07 and the legendary postseason ('07 ECF, etc) that preceded it, he was already in the convo for best player in basketball and his last two seasons of the decade cemented him as one of the best in 2000s NBA. I can keep going but it's not necessary....

Wade was a great player, but don't confuse the facts or share your revisionist history. The 2000s wasn't "Shaq/Kobe/Duncan and a sprinkling of KG and Wade". KG and Dirk were focal players of that decade, and it's oddly questionable of you to talk about "sprinkling" anything without talking about the emergence of one of the 5 greatest players in NBA history. Just quit now...
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Old 12-27-2017, 03:55 AM
 
5,444 posts, read 1,550,803 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
You're talking in circles now...

Your initial statement was "you have to win a ring to be in the conversation".
I said "you have to win a ring to be in the conversation", yet you seem to think that means you are automatically in the conversation if you win a ring....
Luc Longley won rings, but he's not in the conversation for player of the 1990s, is he?
But its the biggest factor that separates MJ from Malone.
MJ being a winner on the biggest stage, while Malone being a loser on the biggest stage.
Malone didn't even make it into the conversation with MJ and Olajuwon, because of this factor.
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Old 12-27-2017, 12:06 PM
 
221 posts, read 98,544 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
I started watching the NBA in the 99-00 season, and Kobe Bryant was my first "favorite player". He's the player that made me fall in love with the NBA. I wanted an afro just like his lol...

How many years was Kobe actually the undisputed greatest player in the game?

The last year he was a consensus Top 10 player was 2012-13; obviously his last three seasons were injury-riddled and he had declined greatly. By my count, his first year as a Top 10 player was 1999-00 At the earliest----though I think an argument can be made he wasn't truly a Top 10 player until the next year. But being generous and completely encompassing his prime, Kobe was a Top 10 player for 14 years of his 20-year career...

When did he become a Top 5 player, and when did that run end? I personally view 10-11 as his last year as a Top 5 player, the year the Mavs scorched him in the playoffs. I don't think he became a Top 5 player until 2002-03, so I'm giving him 9 years as a Top 5 player. However...I guess it can be argued that 2001-02 was his intro as Top 5...

So when comparing Kobe to the other elite players of his generation--and so there's no confusion, I agree he was brilliant and only few people have ever been better--, keep in mind that Kobe's prime (2000-2013) also coincided simultaneously with the primes of Duncan and Nowitzki (did either of those guys have a year as #1 player in basketball?); Kobe's prime also intersected with the primes of Shaq, Iverson, KG, McGrady; and Kobe's prime saw the arrival of Lebron, Wade, Paul, and KD. So all things considered, I'd like to hear everyone's analysis of Kobe's career, during the time he played...

I'm having trouble believing he was ever the undisputed best player in the game beyond maybe a year...


He was never the undisputed greatest player. However, there were times that he was arguably so.


Semantics asides, in my humble opinion:


Young, Athletic Kobe: 2000-2004 seasons - Kobe was the most dynamic perimeter player during this span, which also coincided with the end of Shaq's prime as well as the thick of Tim Duncan/KG's primes. All 3 of these big men made their cases as the best in the game during this era. Tmac and VC did not enjoy team success, Jerry Stackhouse shot too often and missed too often, and allen Iverson was too one dimensional to merit my vote for this era.


Prime Kobe: 2005-2009 seasons - Yes, there was the 81 point game and the 35 ppg scoring average during 05/06, as well as the MVP in 2008 and championship ring in 2009. These were the years where Kobe could have been the undisputed greatest, since Duncan's offensive role took a back seat to Tony Parker, and Garnett plateaued after his 2004 MVP season.


However, something beyond Kobe's control happened during this period: the emergence of Lebron James. (and arguably to a lesser extent, Dwyane Wade). I remember some earlier matchups between Kobe and Lebron from 2006 to 2009, and there were perhaps half a dozen plays where Lebron simply outran Kobe coast to coast to eventually dunk the ball with his forehead at rim level. At this stage I reluctantly accepted the notion that Lebron is the greatest. And advanced statistics and head to head win totals bolstered this argument.


Now for top 5, I'd say his run started at around 2000 and ended at around 2011. Kobe scored at an elite level until 2013 but his athleticism and defense were clearly a shell of what they once were.
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Old 12-27-2017, 05:12 PM
 
51,994 posts, read 41,835,728 times
Reputation: 32441
Quote:
Originally Posted by amenalot View Post
^ Michael Jordan and Olajuwon are the 2 best players of the 1990s, head and shoulders above the rest.
Malone and Stockton were not champions.
They faltered when it mattered most, and that is the opposite of a champion.
If LeBron's career had ended in 2011, his career would be no better than their careers.

BTW winning an MVP when you aren't even a championship contender, doesn't prove you are the best in the game.
I didn't consider Jordan the best in the game when he won his first MVP in 1988 (even though many believed he was the best).
I considered Magic Johnson the best in the game at that stage.

As I said in my earlier post-
2000-2010 belonged to Shaq, Duncan, Kobe with a sprinkling of KG and Wade.

And you can't look at awards to assess this, for example everybody knows Billups was not your typical Finals MVP, as that Detroit team was not reliant on a singular player.
And everybody knows Nash was not the best player in the NBA, despite his MVPs.
But the one award-based criteria I will factor in, is championships (but that doesn't mean everyone who wins a championship is among the best players of the decade - again Billups is not).
I don't know how old you are, but I'm a bulls fan and I watched the finals live where they beat Utah and Malone and Stockton did not falter. Both Stockton and Hornacek were declining due to age and Malone had to fight his way through Rodman.

If you haven't watched those finals, Malone in particular going right through HOF Dennis Rodman was still a force. Jordan and Pippen got to tee off on aging Utah 1-3 positions.
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Old 06-28-2018, 10:19 PM
 
52 posts, read 18,145 times
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In 2003,the general consensus was Kobe vs Tracy McGrady.

Both had monster seasons,
McGrady scored 35 + 13 games straight
Kobe had 9 straight 40 point games and 16 straight 35 ppg

Kobe was clearly the best from < 06 - 08 >" 09 - 10 was arguable but the 2000's clearly belonged to him and Duncan either way you cut it.
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