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Old 02-23-2018, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Curry is a good shooter. That usually coincides with accurate free throw shooting. However, you can have some variance. For example, Klay Thompson shoots an incredible 46% from 3 on 7.1 attempts per game - that’s enough to qualify for GOAT shooter consideration compared to anyone prior to now...however, his FT% is 86%. He’s just not an incredibly elite free throw shooter. Free throw shooting is often a mental/thinking thing. Put Klay in a gym alone and I bet he’s shooting 97-98% from the line.
Klay is actually an 85.3% FT shooter. That's a good percentage. But we're talking about the Top 5 shooters of all time, not just great shooters. The reason why FT% is so salient is because it is the one thing in the history of basketball that has remained constant. It's not something we can really minimize in a discussion like this.
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Who cares what kind of 3s they are. The point is that Curryís unthinkable volume and accuracy from 2013-2015 is being somewhat replicated by players who previously werenít in the same realm as Curry when it comes to volume/accuracy.
The difficulty of the shots matters A LOT to the perception that he is the greatest shooter of all time. The statistics are mindboggling in and of themselves, but even more so because he is taking shots an 11 year old takes when playing 2K.

Yes, volume is one part of why Curry is considered the GOAT shooter. The other part is long-term consistency. Last season, I criticized Curry for having a "down" season even though he shot 41.1% from behind the arc and 89.8% from the line. His worst is better than Harden's best. So far, he is the only player in NBA history to shoot above 40% from 3 his first 9 seasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Transplant Paul Georgeís 2018 season from behind the arc to 2014 or 2015 and heís a Mt Rushmore long range shooter.
Sure, if he can ever get his career % above 40%.
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:57 PM
 
11,680 posts, read 7,061,094 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
The difficulty of the shots matters A LOT to the perception that he is the greatest shooter of all time. The statistics are mindboggling in and of themselves, but even more so because he is taking shots an 11 year old takes when playing 2K.

Yes, volume is one part of why Curry is considered the GOAT shooter. The other part is long-term consistency. Last season, I criticized Curry for having a "down" season even though he shot 41.1% from behind the arc and 89.8% from the line. His worst is better than Harden's best. So far, he is the only player in NBA history to shoot above 40% from 3 his first 9 seasons.



Sure, if he can ever get his career % above 40%.
So just a few years ago Curry was in a class by himself when it comes to volume, accuracy and difficulty. Now itís moving closer to those monumental seasons only being in a class by themselves when it comes to shot difficulty. The game has changed and is changing. 500 3pt attempts on 38%+ accuracy was considered impossible not long ago but look where we are now. To have a chance at more players like Curry coming around, the revolution needs to completely work itís way through the basketball world. Players like George or Harden arenít going to be complete replicas of Curry because they didnít grow up practicing extremely difficult long range shots...they didnít need to with their size/athleticism. And when it comes to kids, how many coaches feel comfortable letting their small/skinny gunslinger lead the offense? Steph was in a more unique position as his dad was an NBA player so any abilities he had couldnít just be swept under the rug. Regardless, now you probably have a lot more kids emulating Steph and coaches that may be more open to letting them use those skills.
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Curry attempted 8.1/game or less up until 2015 and he was being considered GOAT 3 pt shooter because no other player had ever attempted that many while making 40%+. The point is that NO ONE wouldíve thought other players would shoot and make as many 3s as Curry did when he was breaking records for attempts and makes just a few years ago. Now there are several players attempting ~600 3s at around 40%.

Who cares what kind of 3s they are. The point is that Curryís unthinkable volume and accuracy from 2013-2015 is being somewhat replicated by players who previously werenít in the same realm as Curry when it comes to volume/accuracy.

Transplant Paul Georgeís 2018 season from behind the arc to 2014 or 2015 and heís a Mt Rushmore long range shooter.
'13-'15, Curry was shooting just 45-58% of his 3s assisted.

Who cares about the kind of 3s? Anyone who cares about diffioculty and the way shooting impacts the game.

Curry is the GOAT shooter, and averaged over 800 3s attepted the last 2 seasons.

Paul George is a good shooter, not a great one.
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Old 02-23-2018, 01:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
'13-'15, Curry was shooting just 45-58% of his 3s assisted.

Who cares about the kind of 3s? Anyone who cares about diffioculty and the way shooting impacts the game.

Curry is the GOAT shooter, and averaged over 800 3s attepted the last 2 seasons.

Paul George is a good shooter, not a great one.
Youre getting caught in the weeds. Look at the macro picture which is more players starting to shoot with 2015 and prior Curry volume and accuracy. THAT isn’t something to be swept under the rug simply because more of the shots are assisted. That represents a monumental change in the way the game is played. It also opens the door for more players that have a game centered around the 3 pt shot (and with greater difficulty). If say a Mark Price or Steve Nash we’re coming through the ranks right now, they may be a lot better than they were...which says a lot considering how good they were.
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Old 02-26-2018, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,272 posts, read 26,279,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
So just a few years ago Curry was in a class by himself when it comes to volume, accuracy and difficulty. Now it’s moving closer to those monumental seasons only being in a class by themselves when it comes to shot difficulty.
I would say he's still in a class by himself when it comes to volume. No one this season will come close to the 402 three pointers he hit in 15-16.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
The game has changed and is changing. 500 3pt attempts on 38%+ accuracy was considered impossible not long ago but look where we are now.
There've been more than a few players who have attempted 500 3pt attempts on 40% shooting or better.

Ray Allen - 653 (41.2%)
Jason Richardson - 559 (40.6%)
Kyle Korver - 558 (40.5%)
Rashard Lewis - 554 (39.7%)
Peja Stojakovic - 554 (43.3%)
Reggie Miller - 536 (42.7%)
Damon Jones - 521 (43.2%)
Paul Pierce - 520 (40.4%)

To be in the same class with Curry, IMO, you need to have several seasons where you are making 270+ 3 pointers on 44% shooting. It's almost like comparing Jordan Spieth to Tiger Woods. One "Tiger-like" season, which really wasn't even all that Tiger-like considering Tiger won 3 majors in a year and 4 in a row, does not measure up to a long span of dominance.

The volume of 3 point shooting will no doubt to continue to increase, but the question is whether other guys will be able to avoid poor shooting seasons the way Curry has. Volume doesn't mean much without efficiency and consistency.
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:24 PM
 
11,680 posts, read 7,061,094 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I would say he's still in a class by himself when it comes to volume. No one this season will come close to the 402 three pointers he hit in 15-16.
You’re sorta cherry picking one season where Curry made the most in his career. We will likely see 15 players make 200+ 3s this season. That represents a monumental shift in how the game has evolved in a relatively short period of time. Think about it...15 players doing what Reggie Miller did once in his career.



Quote:
There've been more than a few players who have attempted 500 3pt attempts on 40% shooting or better.

Ray Allen - 653 (41.2%)
Jason Richardson - 559 (40.6%)
Kyle Korver - 558 (40.5%)
Rashard Lewis - 554 (39.7%)
Peja Stojakovic - 554 (43.3%)
Reggie Miller - 536 (42.7%)
Damon Jones - 521 (43.2%)
Paul Pierce - 520 (40.4%)
Going all the way back to Reggie Miller’s 1997 season and compiling a list of 8 players in an attempt to make it seem like attempting 500+ 3s has always been commonplace?

Quote:
To be in the same class with Curry, IMO, you need to have several seasons where you are making 270+ 3 pointers on 44% shooting. It's almost like comparing Jordan Spieth to Tiger Woods. One "Tiger-like" season, which really wasn't even all that Tiger-like considering Tiger won 3 majors in a year and 4 in a row, does not measure up to a long span of dominance.

The volume of 3 point shooting will no doubt to continue to increase, but the question is whether other guys will be able to avoid poor shooting seasons the way Curry has. Volume doesn't mean much without efficiency and consistency.
Curry is THE player fine tuned from birth for playing in the 3 ball era. Let’s give it 15 years and see if more players tailored to today’s game come along.
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,272 posts, read 26,279,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
You’re sorta cherry picking one season where Curry made the most in his career. We will likely see 20 players make 200+ 3s this season. That represents a monumental shift in how the game has evolved in a relatively short period of time.
What do you call it when you pick one of James Harden's nine seasons to make a point about increase in shooting percentage?

I don't see using Curry's 15-16 season as "cherrypicking." Prior to that season, Curry held the record for all time makes, but it wasn't anything out of the ordinary. The 15-16 season sort of put the argument about "world's greatest shooter" to rest because he shattered his own record while also shooting a ridiculous 45.4% in a 50/40/90 season. Year over year, we will likely see the volume of 3s made, but we probably won't see the efficiency, and especially on that level. The volume is really only extraordinary because of the efficiency, but it seems that you're more taken by the volume alone.

I mean, Curry's numbers need to be contextualized. Two years ago, he made 50% more 3s than the 2nd place shooter (Klay Thompson) while also posting the 2nd highest percentage in the NBA. This is kinda like Babe Ruth hitting 3 times as many homers as the next highest player while finishing in the Top 10 in batting average during the 1927 season. Sure, you can say Ruth's records stood for decades while Curry's may be broken within a decade (though that's not even clear), but the level of statistical separation between him and his peers is unprecedented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Going all the way back to Reggie Miller’s 1997 season and compiling a list of 8 players in an attempt to make it seem like attempting 500+ 3s has always been commonplace?
The word you used was "impossible." It clearly was not "impossible" if 8 players had shot above 40% on 500 attempts (you actually said 38%). Players shoot more 3s today, so yes, there will be more players posting 38% shooting on 500 attempts. Players really haven't hit 3s at a higher clip, however, and none have really done it season to season, and that's what sets Curry apart in this argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Curry is THE player fine tuned from birth for playing in the 3 ball era. Let’s give it 15 years and see if more players tailored to today’s game come along.
Apparently, he is THE player fine tuned from birth for the Free Throw era as well. Because, as we all know, the Free Throw line did not exist before 2013.

Last edited by BajanYankee; 02-26-2018 at 01:08 PM..
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Old 02-26-2018, 07:58 PM
 
11,680 posts, read 7,061,094 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
What do you call it when you pick one of James Harden's nine seasons to make a point about increase in shooting percentage?
Forget his shooting percentage! Heís having a record year for attempts and makes. That alone represents a monumental shift in basketball. Volume 3 pt shooting isnít just he realm of Curry anymore...but it basically was just 4-5 years ago.

Quote:
I don't see using Curry's 15-16 season as "cherrypicking." Prior to that season, Curry held the record for all time makes, but it wasn't anything out of the ordinary. The 15-16 season sort of put the argument about "world's greatest shooter" to rest because he shattered his own record while also shooting a ridiculous 45.4% in a 50/40/90 season. Year over year, we will likely see the volume of 3s made, but we probably won't see the efficiency, and especially on that level. The volume is really only extraordinary because of the efficiency, but it seems that you're more taken by the volume alone.
You are the one saying look at the body of work and not just one season. 402 makes is an outlier just like you said Hardenís season is thus far. As Iíve said, Curry is a player designed for efficiency and volume. Other players are now putting up similar volume...which is mind blowing considering how fast the NBA has changed.

Quote:
I mean, Curry's numbers need to be contextualized. Two years ago, he made 50% more 3s than the 2nd place shooter (Klay Thompson) while also posting the 2nd highest percentage in the NBA. This is kinda like Babe Ruth hitting 3 times as many homers as the next highest player while finishing in the Top 10 in batting average during the 1927 season. Sure, you can say Ruth's records stood for decades while Curry's may be broken within a decade (though that's not even clear), but the level of statistical separation between him and his peers is unprecedented.
And thatís sorta my point. Up until this year Curry was making something like 50-100 more 3s than the players with the 2nd most makes. Thatís simply not the case anymore. And I doubt it will ever be the case again...especially with the Rockets having the NBAís best record.



Quote:
The word you used was "impossible." It clearly was not "impossible" if 8 players had shot above 40% on 500 attempts (you actually said 38%). Players shoot more 3s today, so yes, there will be more players posting 38% shooting on 500 attempts. Players really haven't hit 3s at a higher clip, however, and none have really done it season to season, and that's what sets Curry apart in this argument.
Well letís go ahead and clear that up. Multiple players shooting with Curryís volume at a respectable percentage seemed impossible just a few years ago. I didnít pour over the record books to find how many players had already done it, but the fact that you found 8 players over the course of 40 or so years speaks volumes about how absurdly rare Curryís volume was...yet not so rare just a few years later.



Quote:
Apparently, he is THE player fine tuned from birth for the Free Throw era as well. Because, as we all know, the Free Throw line did not exist before 2013.
You donít think basically being the worldís first volume shooter from any distance spills over into free throw shooting? The guyís dad was one of the best shooters in NBA history...so yeah, he was bred and nurtured to be a shooter from birth. Heck, his brother was considered to be garbage coming out of college (undrafted) yet went on to have a 43% season from deep on 4.6 attempts/game.
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Old 02-27-2018, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,272 posts, read 26,279,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Forget his shooting percentage! He’s having a record year for attempts and makes. That alone represents a monumental shift in basketball. Volume 3 pt shooting isn’t just he realm of Curry anymore...but it basically was just 4-5 years ago.
How we can we forget shooting percentage in a discussion about the 5 greatest shooters of all time? Your only argument this time has been "volume, volume, volume, volume, volume." Volume doesn't mean that much without context because the volume of made 3s has increased each year since the inception of the 3 point line. Who cares if you make 350 3s if it took you 1,000 attempts to get there? Your point about increased volume has been duly noted and now it's time for you to say something new or move on. The point is not lost on anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
You are the one saying look at the body of work and not just one season. 402 makes is an outlier just like you said Harden’s season is thus far. As I’ve said, Curry is a player designed for efficiency and volume. Other players are now putting up similar volume...which is mind blowing considering how fast the NBA has changed.
402 is not just an outlier for Curry's career, but an outlier in NBA history, period. And that's just the volume component of it. His % was basically in line with what he had been doing ever since he set foot into the League. Curry was besting Ray Allen, and everyone else in the NBA, in both volume and percentage season after season and the 15-16 season only solidified his status as the game's greatest shooter. Harden's season, on the other hand, is an outlier for him, but it's hardly an outlier in any sense of the word.

Great shooters are defined more by their accuracy (obvi) than their number of chucks. This is why Jason Richardson is not considered an ATG shooter despite having made more 3s than Reggie Miller in a single season. Curry's volume is only impressive because of the percentage at which he shot 3s for his entire career.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
And that’s sorta my point. Up until this year Curry was making something like 50-100 more 3s than the players with the 2nd most makes. That’s simply not the case anymore. And I doubt it will ever be the case again...especially with the Rockets having the NBA’s best record.
Broken record.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Well let’s go ahead and clear that up. Multiple players shooting with Curry’s volume at a respectable percentage seemed impossible just a few years ago. I didn’t pour over the record books to find how many players had already done it, but the fact that you found 8 players over the course of 40 or so years speaks volumes about how absurdly rare Curry’s volume was...yet not so rare just a few years later.
Here you go trying to weasel out of another statement. The question is not whether people can shoot higher volumes at "respectable" levels. The answer to that is obvious since players took more 3s in 1990 than they did in 1985 and more 3s in 1995 than they did in 1990 and more 3s in 2000 than they did in 1995 and more 3s in 2005 than they did in 2000 without a corresponding drop in percentage. The question is whether anyone has been doing it on Curry's level, which has been about 44%. The only thing you've pointed out is the very obvious trend that players have continued to make more 3s, which has been going on for the last 2 decades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
You don’t think basically being the world’s first volume shooter from any distance spills over into free throw shooting? The guy’s dad was one of the best shooters in NBA history...so yeah, he was bred and nurtured to be a shooter from birth. Heck, his brother was considered to be garbage coming out of college (undrafted) yet went on to have a 43% season from deep on 4.6 attempts/game.
So now we're at the "But his Dad was an NBA player so unfair!" argument? Too bad Jordan couldn't pass his patented fadeaway to his kids.

By your logic, Paul George's FT% should be higher than ever since he's shooting more 3s than at any point during his career. Yet his % has dropped by nearly 8 percent since last season. Let me guess, is this because Curry's dad wargs into him and makes those FTs for him?

Volume of 3s and FT% are very obviously not that strongly correlated. It is, however, much more strongly correlated with 3P%.
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