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Old 02-27-2018, 09:39 PM
 
11,679 posts, read 7,043,561 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
How we can we forget shooting percentage in a discussion about the 5 greatest shooters of all time? Your only argument this time has been "volume, volume, volume, volume, volume." Volume doesn't mean that much without context because the volume of made 3s has increased each year since the inception of the 3 point line. Who cares if you make 350 3s if it took you 1,000 attempts to get there? Your point about increased volume has been duly noted and now it's time for you to say something new or move on. The point is not lost on anyone.
So the volume of 3s increasing each year now explains why other shooters are shooting with Curry volume all of a sudden? Letís face it, Curryís 3 pt shooting was mesmorizing for a 3-4 year stretch, but now other players are becoming efficient volume 3pt shooters on the fly. The question is - will the sudden importance of 3 pt shooting create more guards in the Curry mold. As I said before, if you (or your kid) arenít lightning quick/6í8/super athletic, let shooting be your thing...thatís what Dell, Steph and Seth did.



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402 is not just an outlier for Curry's career, but an outlier in NBA history, period. And that's just the volume component of it. His % was basically in line with what he had been doing ever since he set foot into the League. Curry was besting Ray Allen, and everyone else in the NBA, in both volume and percentage season after season and the 15-16 season only solidified his status as the game's greatest shooter. Harden's season, on the other hand, is an outlier for him, but it's hardly an outlier in any sense of the word.
Take Steph out of the picture and Hardenís season IS an outlier in every sense of the word. That many 3s a a decent/good percentage from a guy that was never a volume 3 pt shooter until a few years ago? Thatís the entire point though - Iím simply saying that the game is rapidly changing toward 3 ball dominance so donít be surprised if we see more shooters putting up Curry volume at 40%+. Thatís not taking anything away from Curry - simply stating that makes sense for more players to pattern their game after him.

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Great shooters are defined more by their accuracy (obvi) than their number of chucks. This is why Jason Richardson is not considered an ATG shooter despite having made more 3s than Reggie Miller in a single season. Curry's volume is only impressive because of the percentage at which he shot 3s for his entire career.
Who said accuracy isnít important? Iím simply pointing out that the combination of Curryís accuracy AND volume is what made him shocking for 3-4 years. At the time, I wouldíve thought any players that tried approaching his volume would shoot under 30%. However, that hasnít been the case.

Heck, even Chris Paul is having a career year from deep. Heís shooting 39% on a career high 6.6 attempts per game. Travor Ariza is also shooting 39% on 7.1 attempts. Gerald Green 38% on a career high 7.2 attempts. Perhaps thereís something to a style of play focused on spreading the court with shooters and heaving 3s without restraint? The Rockets have 4 players flirting with Curry volume circa Ď10-Ď15 while nearing 40% accuracy...and none of them were assassins early in their careers. Thatís noteworthy.

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Broken record.
Truth.



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Here you go trying to weasel out of another statement. The question is not whether people can shoot higher volumes at "respectable" levels. The answer to that is obvious since players took more 3s in 1990 than they did in 1985 and more 3s in 1995 than they did in 1990 and more 3s in 2000 than they did in 1995 and more 3s in 2005 than they did in 2000 without a corresponding drop in percentage. The question is whether anyone has been doing it on Curry's level, which has been about 44%. The only thing you've pointed out is the very obvious trend that players have continued to make more 3s, which has been going on for the last 2 decades.
But where did I argue that another player in the league is a better shooter? And donít act like this season is simply a continuation of historic trends. Curry doninated volume shooting for 4-5 years...no one was even close. Now, multiple players are replicating his volume while maintaining accuracy. As I mentioned, Paul George is having a season from 3 thatís nearly on par with 2010-2015 Curry in volume and accuracy. Would I have thought a player would do that in say 2014 when Curry was in a class by himself? Well, not from anyone that was in the NBA in 2014.

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So now we're at the "But his Dad was an NBA player so unfair!" argument? Too bad Jordan couldn't pass his patented fadeaway to his kids.
Strawman.

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By your logic, Paul George's FT% should be higher than ever since he's shooting more 3s than at any point during his career. Yet his % has dropped by nearly 8 percent since last season. Let me guess, is this because Curry's dad wargs into him and makes those FTs for him?
Who said 3pt accuracy ALWAYS correlates with FT accuracy? Long range shooters are typically good FT shooters. Volume 3pt shooters are typically good FT shooters. Klay Thompson for example is an extremely accurate 3pt shooter, but for some reason heís no better at the FT line than James Harden.
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Old 02-28-2018, 09:53 AM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,873,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
So the volume of 3s increasing each year now explains why other shooters are shooting with Curry volume all of a sudden? Letís face it, Curryís 3 pt shooting was mesmorizing for a 3-4 year stretch, but now other players are becoming efficient volume 3pt shooters on the fly. The question is - will the sudden importance of 3 pt shooting create more guards in the Curry mold. As I said before, if you (or your kid) arenít lightning quick/6í8/super athletic, let shooting be your thing...thatís what Dell, Steph and Seth did.
Curry's shooting continues to be well beyond what other players are doing. Curry is shooting 42% on 10 attempts per game and 40% unassisted. The players above him in percentage this year are either spot up shooters or low volume shooters, or both (most are also taking a much higher percentage of their shots from the short corners). There is no comparing Steph to Seth, or even to Dell. He's on another planet. He breaks the idea of what a good shot looks like in NBA basketball, because his range, accuracy, volume, and accuracy off of the dribble are unprecedented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Take Steph out of the picture and Hardenís season IS an outlier in every sense of the word. That many 3s a a decent/good percentage from a guy that was never a volume 3 pt shooter until a few years ago? Thatís the entire point though - Iím simply saying that the game is rapidly changing toward 3 ball dominance so donít be surprised if we see more shooters putting up Curry volume at 40%+. Thatís not taking anything away from Curry - simply stating that makes sense for more players to pattern their game after him.
If Steph had never existed, then Harden's season would be an outlier. Steph does exist, and so it is not. Harden is the one chasing after Curry--by extending his range & shooting off the dribble and taking an ultra high volume. But Harden's efficiency is very good, while Steph's is elite. Harden has made 20 more 3s than Curry this year; but he has shot 100 more.

We are not seeing other players pull up from 28-35 feet off of the dribble at Steph's accuracy. Because other players can't do that. We aren't seeing other players shoot 40+% while taking 10/game & 40%+ of their 3s off of the dribble. Because other players can't do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Who said accuracy isnít important? Iím simply pointing out that the combination of Curryís accuracy AND volume is what made him shocking for 3-4 years. At the time, I wouldíve thought any players that tried approaching his volume would shoot under 30%. However, that hasnít been the case.
You can't ignore accuracy, volume, range, or degree of difficulty. They are all factors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Heck, even Chris Paul is having a career year from deep. Heís shooting 39% on a career high 6.6 attempts per game. Travor Ariza is also shooting 39% on 7.1 attempts. Gerald Green 38% on a career high 7.2 attempts. Perhaps thereís something to a style of play focused on spreading the court with shooters and heaving 3s without restraint? The Rockets have 4 players flirting with Curry volume circa Ď10-Ď15 while nearing 40% accuracy...and none of them were assassins early in their careers. Thatís noteworthy.
The Rockets--obviously--shoot a lot of 3s and spread the floor. Most of their guys are taking almost exclusively assisted and open 3s, with the exceptions of Paul & Harden (both sub-40% & Paul is not in the ballpark in terms of volume). That is D'Antoni offense and a team built to run it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
But where did I argue that another player in the league is a better shooter? And donít act like this season is simply a continuation of historic trends. Curry doninated volume shooting for 4-5 years...no one was even close. Now, multiple players are replicating his volume while maintaining accuracy. As I mentioned, Paul George is having a season from 3 thatís nearly on par with 2010-2015 Curry in volume and accuracy. Would I have thought a player would do that in say 2014 when Curry was in a class by himself? Well, not from anyone that was in the NBA in 2014.
Curry continues to be in a class by himself. Wake me when Paul George is pulling up from 30 feet off of the dribble 1+ time per game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Who said 3pt accuracy ALWAYS correlates with FT accuracy? Long range shooters are typically good FT shooters. Volume 3pt shooters are typically good FT shooters. Klay Thompson for example is an extremely accurate 3pt shooter, but for some reason heís no better at the FT line than James Harden.
85% is an excellent FT%. Both Klay and Harden are great shooters. Harden is in the top 50 for NBA career FT% for players who've taken at least 1200. Only 3 players are over 90%. I would say that top 50 all-time is extremely accurate.
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Old 03-03-2018, 12:42 AM
 
11,679 posts, read 7,043,561 times
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Kyrie Irving is shooting 41% on a career high 6.8 3-pt attempts. If I’m not mistaken that would be a very elite season from deep prior to 2010 or so...essentially in line with some of Ray Allen’s best seasons during his prime. It pretty much equals Reggie Miller’s best season in which he attempted 6.6 with a 42.7% conversion rate. Bird, Nash, Price, etc can’t touch Kyrie’s volume/accuracy this season.

Another thing about Kyrie is that his percentages don’t drop off in the playoffs. For his career, Kyrie shoots 41.5% from 3 and 87.6% from the FT line (reg season: 38.8%/87.5%). That’s actually pretty similar to Curry who for his playoff career shoots 41% from 3 and 88.5% from the FT line.

Looking at playoff stats, Kyrie is actually a better shooter than Reggie, Allen, Nash, etc.

Last edited by eddiehaskell; 03-03-2018 at 12:55 AM..
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Old 03-03-2018, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,794 posts, read 14,266,872 times
Reputation: 7950
It should be noted that there is an inherent relationship between accuracy and volume. A high volume shooter is taking tougher shots that a low volume shooter might pass up.


So if Curry takes 789 3 pt shots and shoots .411, and Korver shoots .451 on 359 attempts, we can't necessarily say that Korver is the better shooter, because Curry is taken so many more tough shots. Curry's attempts more than double Korver's.
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Old 03-10-2018, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
12,473 posts, read 4,216,580 times
Reputation: 9780
I forgot about this thread and it's nice to see we are up to 9 pages.

I skimmed the postings and didn't see much mention of...

Pistol Pete Maravich

Drazen Petrovic (only played 2 seasons until life was tragically cut short)....but I can assure you this guy was one of the best ever.

World B. Free (great offensive player - for you younger guys -- YouTube him)
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Old 03-10-2018, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Sioux Falls, SD area
3,171 posts, read 4,636,378 times
Reputation: 5343
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerGeek40 View Post
I forgot about this thread and it's nice to see we are up to 9 pages.

I skimmed the postings and didn't see much mention of...

Pistol Pete Maravich

Drazen Petrovic (only played 2 seasons until life was tragically cut short)....but I can assure you this guy was one of the best ever.

World B. Free (great offensive player - for you younger guys -- YouTube him)

Any list of the greatest shooters without Pistol Pete I incomplete. In the days when outside gunning weren't as popular (no 3 pointers), he was in a class by himself. Had he ever been surrounded by a better supporting cast making it impossible to double team him everywhere, he would have put up unheard of numbers for his day and even today.


He was the Archie Manning for basketball guards. The best player playing with some of the worse players.
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Old 03-12-2018, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,258 posts, read 26,226,229 times
Reputation: 11716
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmgg View Post
Any list of the greatest shooters without Pistol Pete I incomplete. In the days when outside gunning weren't as popular (no 3 pointers), he was in a class by himself. Had he ever been surrounded by a better supporting cast making it impossible to double team him everywhere, he would have put up unheard of numbers for his day and even today.
I don't know why people consider Pistol Pete one of the ATG shooters when Calvin Murphy, who nobody talks about, posted superior %s season after season while averaging 20+ PPG in most of them. He was also a substantially better FT shooter. Pistol Pete *may* have been one of the best shooters ever, but this is an assessment being made solely on the eyeball test and myths that have been handed down from our fathers. If you look at his actual success rate of making shots, it's not that spectacular.
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Old 03-12-2018, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Western US
498 posts, read 141,812 times
Reputation: 203
These are the five best shooters in NBA history in my opinion:
1. Stephen Curry
2. Klay Thompson
3. Ray Allen
4. Reggie Miller
5. Larry Bird
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Old 03-12-2018, 09:12 PM
 
Location: Western US
498 posts, read 141,812 times
Reputation: 203
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
How can Steve Nash not be included when he's had four 40/50/90 seasons, which is a League record?
Steve Nash is easily a top ten shooter of all-time for sure. Not only was he excellent at shooting three-pointers, he is also the best free throw shooter in NBA history, at 90.43%.
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Old 03-13-2018, 01:07 AM
 
11,679 posts, read 7,043,561 times
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I think Chris Mullin could have a case for top 5. I would like to see what he could do freely launching say 7+ 3s per game. You can see that he wasn’t much of a 3 pt shooter early in his career (1 attempt/28%) despite being a good shooter (50% fg% and 88% from the FT line). Perhaps he would’ve further mastered the 3pt shot if his career conincided with a 3pt dominant NBA.

Last edited by eddiehaskell; 03-13-2018 at 01:18 AM..
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