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Old 06-07-2018, 12:13 PM
 
11,679 posts, read 7,048,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Today's era is better than the 90s. I am doubtful that the Bulls would have won 8 straight, but we needn't speculate. They won 3, then they won 3 again.

Comparing raw scoring numbers is a somewhat pointless exercise, in that LBJ plays in the zone defense era and MJ didn't. A dominant scorer is unstoppable in isolation, but zone defense prevents isolation opportunities.
You didn’t watch the finals with Lebron isoed against against everyone except those with a chance to guard him? I think Steph Curry might as well be considered the primary defender for Lebron. It’s not like Lebron is cutting and coming off screens for 40 points - he’s catching the ball, dancing a little and shooting the mid range jumper or getting his defender on his shoulder and powering to the basket. MJ could do the same or contort his body in the air to get a layup around a defender.

What about KD in iso after iso raising up for jumpers over people nearly a foot shorter? At times KD is just catching the ball and waiting 3-4 seconds while he decides which iso move he wants to use. MJ had an unstoppable fade away to do the same thing.
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Old 06-07-2018, 02:43 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,875,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
You didnít watch the finals with Lebron isoed against against everyone except those with a chance to guard him? I think Steph Curry might as well be considered the primary defender for Lebron. Itís not like Lebron is cutting and coming off screens for 40 points - heís catching the ball, dancing a little and shooting the mid range jumper or getting his defender on his shoulder and powering to the basket. MJ could do the same or contort his body in the air to get a layup around a defender.

What about KD in iso after iso raising up for jumpers over people nearly a foot shorter? At times KD is just catching the ball and waiting 3-4 seconds while he decides which iso move he wants to use. MJ had an unstoppable fade away to do the same thing.
Curry is doing a great job as the primary defender on LBJ, but he always has help behind him. The help can come from four different directions because zone defense is allowed. That's very different than the gimmicky offense the Bulls used to run with MJ in the mid post isolated with all four other Bulls on the opposite side of the court. That play effectively put a defender on an island with MJ. While Curry has often been the primary defender on LBJ, he has not been on an island.

Those KD "ISOs" are similarly only isolation to the midrange. Opposing defenses are prepared to provide help, and you see the help come when he attacks the rim off of the dribble. MJ used the threat of his drive to open that fadeaway out of the post. While KD can drive, he is going to drive into help, which makes the drive less threatening than it was in the 90s.
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Old 06-07-2018, 02:49 PM
 
803 posts, read 556,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Curry is doing a great job as the primary defender on LBJ, but he always has help behind him. The help can come from four different directions because zone defense is allowed. That's very different than the gimmicky offense the Bulls used to run with MJ in the mid post isolated with all four other Bulls on the opposite side of the court. That play effectively put a defender on an island with MJ. While Curry has often been the primary defender on LBJ, he has not been on an island.

Those KD "ISOs" are similarly only isolation to the midrange. Opposing defenses are prepared to provide help, and you see the help come when he attacks the rim off of the dribble. MJ used the threat of his drive to open that fadeaway out of the post. While KD can drive, he is going to drive into help, which makes the drive less threatening than it was in the 90s.
True, and if I could remember how many times illegal defense was called on teams that played the Bulls. I remember many times after Jordan having the ball for a few seconds that a few players and coach screaming for the refs to call illegal defense which they did quite often.
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Old 06-07-2018, 06:01 PM
 
11,679 posts, read 7,048,359 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Curry is doing a great job as the primary defender on LBJ, but he always has help behind him. The help can come from four different directions because zone defense is allowed. That's very different than the gimmicky offense the Bulls used to run with MJ in the mid post isolated with all four other Bulls on the opposite side of the court. That play effectively put a defender on an island with MJ. While Curry has often been the primary defender on LBJ, he has not been on an island.

Those KD "ISOs" are similarly only isolation to the midrange. Opposing defenses are prepared to provide help, and you see the help come when he attacks the rim off of the dribble. MJ used the threat of his drive to open that fadeaway out of the post. While KD can drive, he is going to drive into help, which makes the drive less threatening than it was in the 90s.
What help? Despite not being an elite jump shooter, Lebron gets to the rim with ease. Iím actually surprised when he doesnít go for over 40. If he were more aggressive he could average 45-50 ppg against one of the ďbestĒ defenses in basketball. He wouldíve had nearly 40 in game 3 if not for missing a few wide open layups. Jordan would do exactly what Lebron has done only better. The Warriors typically have one defender on the court that can somewhat challenge Lebron (KD or Iggy) so the name of the game is screening for Lebron and getting one of those other 4 players on an island for Lebron to go one on one with either a driving layup, back down, pull up mid range jumper or occasional 3. Draymond, Curry, Klay, McGee, Bell, Livingston...none of them can really guard Lebron. Thatís why these games have stayed so close. In the situations where help comes and Lebron gets stuck, he simply looks to the 3 point line for Love, JR, Hill, Korver.

So yeah, iso ball is far from dead. KD and Lebron prove that you can win or stay competitive on the biggest stage with one guy simply recognizing whos guarding him and putting the ball in the basket. In Lebronís case you can make the finals and stay somewhat competitive simply because the other team canít stop you from feasting 18 feet in.
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Old 06-07-2018, 10:35 PM
 
Location: So California
8,548 posts, read 8,879,514 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Today's era is better than the 90s. I am doubtful that the Bulls would have won 8 straight, but we needn't speculate. They won 3, then they won 3 again.

Comparing raw scoring numbers is a somewhat pointless exercise, in that LBJ plays in the zone defense era and MJ didn't. A dominant scorer is unstoppable in isolation, but zone defense prevents isolation opportunities.
I donít think so. I donít think even the Warriors could have beaten Jordanís Bulls teams. You guys way underestimate those teams AND the teams they beat.
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Old 06-08-2018, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Comparing raw scoring numbers is a somewhat pointless exercise, in that LBJ plays in the zone defense era and MJ didn't. A dominant scorer is unstoppable in isolation, but zone defense prevents isolation opportunities.
Michael Jordan was also double and triple teamed every night...probably more than any perimeter player in history. Not only was he unstoppable 1 on 1, but he was unstoppable when teams sent 2-3 guys at him. He was easily the best player ever at splitting the double team, spinning away from the double team, or simply shooting over it. I'd say Kobe was second best. Durant tends to panic and turn the ball over when being blitzed by two or more defenders.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_nt21y8Xy0
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Old 06-08-2018, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
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There are 3 examples in one game of Kevin Durant turning the ball over in a double team. If you remember the GSW-OKC regular season classic where Curry hit the game winner, Durant also turned the ball over after being double teamed at the end of the game, which allowed Iggy to get fouled and tie the game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me5lH-xDs8g

This is one area where he is clearly inferior to Jordan and Kobe as a scorer. Yes, he is efficient, but I think one reason why this is the case is because teams can take him away with enough pressure. That's why he tends to have low shot counts IMO no matter how well or poorly he's shooting. You can't stop him on one one, but you can force him to give the ball up.
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Old 06-08-2018, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TR95 View Post
True, and if I could remember how many times illegal defense was called on teams that played the Bulls. I remember many times after Jordan having the ball for a few seconds that a few players and coach screaming for the refs to call illegal defense which they did quite often.
Not true. The triangle offense does not have "the four other players on the other side of the floor." What are you people smoking?

The Triangle Offense: Triangle Basics

It was tough for guards to score back then, not so much for handchecking, the effects of which people tend to blow out of proportion, but for the fact that there was no defensive 3 seconds. Instead of having Draymond or Iggy waiting behind Curry, Jordan would have Mutombo, Ewing, Olujawon or O'Neal waiting for him at the basket.

If anything, modern-day shot blockers should be given more credit because they can't stand underneath the goal waiting to swat away shots the way they did back in the day.
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Old 06-09-2018, 04:06 AM
 
107 posts, read 35,184 times
Reputation: 222
2 sweeps in the finals. He has proven several times to be a horrific leader. Now he is moving again, to an instant champoinship contender. All 3 issues lead to one conclusion, LeBron is not the GOAT.
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Old 06-09-2018, 04:08 AM
 
107 posts, read 35,184 times
Reputation: 222
Matter of fact, i am confused why Magic is left out of the GOAT discussion.
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