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Old 06-19-2018, 11:15 AM
 
7,705 posts, read 4,566,742 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
I watched most of Jordan's career. Pippen was far and away the league's best wing defender--a disruptive force on the defensive end. Pippen was also a versatile offensive weapon. Horace Grant was a good big, and Rodman was an excellent defender and rebounder. Kukoc was a nice proto-stretch 4. Those teams were stacked.

The 90s Bulls and current Warriors would pit two great offenses against two great defenses. With zone defense allowed, I think the current Warriors torch the Bulls. Without zone defense, I think it's close. Modern defenses are only as good as their weakest link, and the Warriors are excellent. The 2nd 3-peat Bulls had 3 excellent defenders, a pretty good one, and then nothing. They wouldn't be able to play a center against the Warriors, and the Bulls' wings never had to defend a shot from 30 feet. Without zone, MJ, KD, and Steph would all be unstoppable.
With the 1996 3-pt line, the Bulls wouldn’t have a chance, zone defense, or no.
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Old 06-19-2018, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
With the 1996 3-pt line, the Bulls wouldn’t have a chance, zone defense, or no.
The Bulls could make Curry unplayable. Lebron and Harden can't punish small defenders in the post. With Jordan and Pippen matched up against Curry, that's a bucket nearly every possession.
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Old 06-19-2018, 11:50 AM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,875,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
The Bulls could make Curry unplayable. Lebron and Harden can't punish small defenders in the post. With Jordan and Pippen matched up against Curry, that's a bucket nearly every possession.
Zone defense allows help. Curry can't guard Harden or LBJ one-on-one, but he can guard them when he has help behind. LBJ in post isolation is much more threatening than even MJ. But post-isolation doesn't exist anymore.
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Old 06-19-2018, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Zone defense allows help. Curry can't guard Harden or LBJ one-on-one, but he can guard them when he has help behind. LBJ in post isolation is much more threatening than even MJ. But post-isolation doesn't exist anymore.
Jordan was double and tripled team his entire career. That's not going to make too much of a difference.

Post-isolation doesn't exist anymore because there aren't many guys skilled enough to pull it off. You've got Durant, an aging Dirk (who was better at it in his prime than KD ever was), and maybe Shaun Livingston. Kyrie shows glimpses of it. That's really it. Even in Jordan's day, there weren't a whole lot of guys who could really slaughter you in the mid range.

Lebron is not more threatening in the post than Jordan. His bread and butter is putting his head down and charging to the basket with a full head of steam. He's probably better at bully ball than Jordan was but not nearly as surgical as Jordan with his post ups. I believe someone on either Reddit or RealGM posted a shot chart for Jordan's 96-97 and 97-98 seasons and he shot something crazy like 52-54% between 10 and 16 feet for those seasons combined. Other than Shaq and maybe Olajuwon in the early 90s, he was definitely the most unstoppable post player I've ever seen.
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Old 06-19-2018, 12:21 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,875,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Jordan was double and tripled team his entire career. That's not going to make too much of a difference.

Post-isolation doesn't exist anymore because there aren't many guys skilled enough to pull it off. You've got Durant, an aging Dirk (who was better at it in his prime than KD ever was), and maybe Shaun Livingston. Kyrie shows glimpses of it. That's really it. Even in Jordan's day, there weren't a whole lot of guys who could really slaughter you in the mid range.

Lebron is not more threatening in the post than Jordan. His bread and butter is putting his head down and charging to the basket with a full head of steam. He's probably better at bully ball than Jordan was but not nearly as surgical as Jordan with his post ups. I believe someone on either Reddit or RealGM posted a shot chart for Jordan's 96-97 and 97-98 seasons and he shot something crazy like 52-54% between 10 and 16 feet for those seasons combined. Other than Shaq and maybe Olajuwon in the early 90s, he was definitely the most unstoppable post player I've ever seen.
Jordan's driving threat was a huge part of what made him effective in the mid-post. Defenders had to play his drive because it was deadly (that's how he created so much space with jab steps and shoulder feints). His drive would be much less effective in the zone era. He would have a very different game if he played in the zone era--as he has acknowledged.
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Old 06-19-2018, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
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From the Chicago Tribune in 1987.

Quote:
Around the National Basketball Association, they've tried to stop Michael Jordan, last season's leading scorer by more than eight points a game, almost every way imaginable.

They've used zone traps; they've put two, three and sometimes four defenders on him; they've matched him against 7-footers and the best defensive players in the league. They've tried seemingly everything but hijacking the team bus and applying glue to his sneakers.

Until now.

This season, some say, they're going after Jordan with the NBA rulebook.
No More Spectators On The Floor With Nba`s New `Jordan Rule` - tribunedigital-chicagotribune

If Russell Westbrook, can put up 30+ per game with worse career 3-point shooting than Jordan, then I don't see why MJ wouldn't have multiple MVPs in today's era.
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Old 06-19-2018, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Jordan's driving threat was a huge part of what made him effective in the mid-post. Defenders had to play his drive because it was deadly (that's how he created so much space with jab steps and shoulder feints). His drive would be much less effective in the zone era. He would have a very different game if he played in the zone era--as he has acknowledged.
Russell Westbrook and Dwyane Wade's drives have been very effective in the zone era. So have Isaiah Thomas's. So have Kyrie Irving's. So have Demar Derozan's. And John Wall's. Even Ben Simmons has had great success attacking the basket and he can't shoot beyond 4 feet.

I don't want to sound like the old timer who hypes up everything from the past, but Michael Jordan would have no problems finishing over Javale McGee, Zaza, KD and any other big man in the NBA today. He was fast enough to slice through traps and triple teams like a hot knife through butter and he could rise and hang high enough to finish on ANYBODY. He was a bigger, steroidal version of Russell Westbrook with the energy of a 6-year old on Halloween.
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Old 06-19-2018, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Jordan's driving threat was a huge part of what made him effective in the mid-post. Defenders had to play his drive because it was deadly (that's how he created so much space with jab steps and shoulder feints). His drive would be much less effective in the zone era. He would have a very different game if he played in the zone era--as he has acknowledged.
This is also wrong because Jordan could post defenders and drain midrange jumpers all day. This was especially true in his later years when his athleticism slipped a bit. Lebron, on the other hand, can't operate in the post for an entire game and go off for 45 points. The description you wrongly attributed to Jordan actually applies to Lebron--he gets decent 3 point looks because defenders have to respect his ability to attack the basket.

Lebron has 3 basic offensive moves. No. 1, take it strong to the rim and finish. This has been a very effective move. No. 2, shoot a 3-pointer. This has obviously been less effective, but Lebron is an absolute terror when his 3 ball gets going, which makes it easier for him to pull of move No. 1. No. 3, post up and pound the ball for 16-18 seconds while backing a guy down before kicking out to a shooter or taking an inefficient (for him) fadeaway jumper. That's honestly the extent of his offensive scoring repertoire. He's worked on his post game over the years, and it has improved, but not to the point where he can consistently punish Steph Curry down low. I'm sure Shaun Livingston has no problem posting Steph and shooting over him in practice, but Lebron has always had somewhat crude mid to low post skills.

The types of isolations Lebron gets against Steph would be scores 97% of the time if Jordan had the same isolations. Lebron can't take advantage of that mismatch but better post players (i.e., Pippen and Jordan) most certainly could. Even Kyrie is able to take advantage of this mismatch (and yes, this is a mismatch) do I can only imagine what the Bulls could do.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRc7R9UaoFc
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Old 06-19-2018, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,242,183 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
But post-isolation doesn't exist anymore.
Okay.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znBxefuRjKg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_muizwtF7w
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Old 06-19-2018, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Here or There
3,960 posts, read 2,512,283 times
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DeRozan does have great footwork...I just want to know why this Derozan always disappears against the Cavs in the playoffs?
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