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Old 06-19-2018, 05:01 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,872,849 times
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Notice how help is always at the basket, taking away options?
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Old 06-19-2018, 05:14 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,872,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Jordan was double and tripled team his entire career. That's not going to make too much of a difference.

Post-isolation doesn't exist anymore because there aren't many guys skilled enough to pull it off. You've got Durant, an aging Dirk (who was better at it in his prime than KD ever was), and maybe Shaun Livingston. Kyrie shows glimpses of it. That's really it. Even in Jordan's day, there weren't a whole lot of guys who could really slaughter you in the mid range.

Lebron is not more threatening in the post than Jordan. His bread and butter is putting his head down and charging to the basket with a full head of steam. He's probably better at bully ball than Jordan was but not nearly as surgical as Jordan with his post ups. I believe someone on either Reddit or RealGM posted a shot chart for Jordan's 96-97 and 97-98 seasons and he shot something crazy like 52-54% between 10 and 16 feet for those seasons combined. Other than Shaq and maybe Olajuwon in the early 90s, he was definitely the most unstoppable post player I've ever seen.
Jordan thought there was a difference: If Zone Defenses Come In, Stars May Go Out - tribunedigital-chicagotribune

"If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did."

Curry shot 54% between 10-16 feet this season (his career high from that range is 55.7%. Illegal defense rules were designed to create post up opportunities. Zone defense rules make post-ups much worse than passing, cutting, and shooting. Players like DeRozan and KD can still shoot well enough to score out of the mid-post (and they would have crushed the 90s), but it is not the best offense against the zone.

If LBJ played in the illegal defense era, his go-to move would be to get the ball in the midpost and either use his first step to get by an opponent from the face-up position or to back down his opponent and create an inside shot. No 90s defender would have a chance.
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Old 06-19-2018, 06:11 PM
 
11,679 posts, read 7,040,185 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Notice how help is always at the basket, taking away options?
So what limitations to Jordanís game would make you think he couldnít adapt to help defense being around the basket? Donít tell me Derozan (27 ppg) and Westbrook (32 ppg) are more offensively skilled players.
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Old 06-19-2018, 06:20 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,872,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
So what limitations to Jordanís game would make you think he couldnít adapt to help defense being around the basket? Donít tell me Derozan (27 ppg) and Westbrook (32 ppg) are more offensively skilled players.
I don't think DeRozan or Westbrook are more skilled. I think that Jordan could adapt. I think it is ridiculous to argue that modern players are inferior to past players because they don't isolate in the post (without recognizing the rule change that dramatically impacts strategy on both ends of the floor), and that modern defenses aren't great because . . . reasons. I think Jordan was a great player. He is a top 5 all-time player. But basketball changed with the zone. Defenses are more sophisticated, as are offenses. Shooting, passing, and IQ have greater relative value.
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Old 06-19-2018, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Western Asia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
I watched most of Jordan's career. Pippen was far and away the league's best wing defender--a disruptive force on the defensive end. Pippen was also a versatile offensive weapon. Horace Grant was a good big, and Rodman was an excellent defender and rebounder. Kukoc was a nice proto-stretch 4. Those teams were stacked.

The 90s Bulls and current Warriors would pit two great offenses against two great defenses. With zone defense allowed, I think the current Warriors torch the Bulls. Without zone defense, I think it's close. Modern defenses are only as good as their weakest link, and the Warriors are excellent. The 2nd 3-peat Bulls had 3 excellent defenders, a pretty good one, and then nothing. They wouldn't be able to play a center against the Warriors, and the Bulls' wings never had to defend a shot from 30 feet. Without zone, MJ, KD, and Steph would all be unstoppable.
I think we both agree that how it's called and the rules applicable makes a difference. The game today is an evolution based somewhat on rules and officiating changes included in the evolution, if the Bulls team were playing in today's league, they also would have evolved. Think about who on the Warriors stops Jordan without hand checking him...ie, not a chance.


When I think about the matchups, KD would probably have Rodman or Pippen on him so the very best defenders, they at least slow him down. Jordan is underrated as a defender and could guard either GS guard.


So my point is GS has not faced a defense like the Bulls would have put on them and yeah, the Bulls never faced a team with the shooters of the Warriors (actually no one has). My conclusion is that the teams are equal especially in the context of the Bulls evolving based on the current rules and officiating. So it's mental toughness (Bulls) versus the shooting clinic....I can understand those that pick GS but I still think the Bulls superior competitiveness wins.
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Old 06-20-2018, 06:54 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,248 posts, read 26,214,003 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Notice how help is always at the basket, taking away options?
Help defense was not invented circa 2014. That is something that has been taught and permitted at every level of basketball since forever. Any time a player rotates over to help defend another player, that is "help" defense.

What was illegal in the 80s/90s was not help defense, but "shading." Shading is effective against a player who can't shoot just as zone defense is effective against players that can't shoot. Michael Jordan, however, could shoot, and he could do it right over the top of people even better than Kevin Durant could. When a player shoots well from longer ranges, shading him isn't a very effective defensive strategy since he can rise up and shoot over defenders.

The principle behind any zone defense is creating a numerical advantage against any one offensive player. The same is obviously true with a double or triple team. If Jordan was constantly beating three defenders and still getting buckets, why would a zone defense (which doesn't fully exist in the NBA anyway) or a shading defender be more to difficult to score against? As an avid player who still competes in semi-competitive leagues to this day, I'd like to hear how zones would be more effective stopping a hot player than hard traps and doubles would.
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Old 06-20-2018, 07:10 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,248 posts, read 26,214,003 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
If LBJ played in the illegal defense era, his go-to move would be to get the ball in the midpost and either use his first step to get by an opponent from the face-up position or to back down his opponent and create an inside shot. No 90s defender would have a chance.
LBJ's mediocre post offense is a product of poor footwork, not the rules. Durant, Derozan, Livingston, Leonard, and Irving all have good to solid post-up games because they have good footwork. Even Andre Miller had a pretty strong post game pushing 40 years of age. He could pull it off because he had good footwork and tons of guile. Lebron is a wily vet, but his offensive repertoire is almost completely lacking in guile with none of the fakes and craftiness that Kyrie Irving, much less Michael Jordan, possesses.

Lebron doesn't even have a real pull up jumper. And by "pull up," I don't mean bringing the ball up and shooting a 3. I mean driving hard to the basket with a couple of dribbles and then stopping on a dime to elevate for a jumper. With him, he either beats you with raw power and athleticism to the basket, uses his off arm to push defenders away as he barrels his way down low, or settles for a 3 pointer if Options #1 and 2 aren't available.

With a guy like Jordan, you could bring all the help you wanted, but he could split double teams off the dribble. He could spin away from them with his excellent footwork and shoot a fadeaway. Or he could spin away from the double team and then go straight to the basket and throw it down, which is exactly what he did in that infamous playoff game against the Knicks.
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,248 posts, read 26,214,003 times
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How Jordan handles a double team. The ball goes to Jordan in the post, who's being guarded by Trent Tucker, and Charles Oakley starts to trap Jordan immediately. Ewing shifts over to take away the backdoor. Jordan bounces out to the 3 point line, then reverses back towards the baseline, then splits Tucker and Oakley and pulls up for a jumper at the FT line.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_nt21y8Xy0

In this clip, Kevin Durant gets ambushed at the 3 point line and gets stripped.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGZzO14dHPk
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,248 posts, read 26,214,003 times
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In the same game, Durant gets ambushed with a double team while trying to post and gets stripped again.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me5lH-xDs8g

In the very same game, Durant gets doubled team yet again and throws the ball away, which was the exact same thing he did against Golden State two years ago when they lost that regular season game in OT.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_NygaHX7ao

It is true that no one single defender can stop KD, but he can be stopped by 2 defenders. And that's the difference between him and Jordan. You could try to trap Jordan and he'd find a way to score anyway.
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:21 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,248 posts, read 26,214,003 times
Reputation: 11701
Kobe shows excellent footwork here as he scores through the double team. This is often why I have a hard time calling Durant a better scorer than Kobe despite having better stats on paper. If defenses can force the ball out of your hands 90% of the time by doubling, can you really be on par with Jordan?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Eg59vHjCoQ
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