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Old 06-20-2018, 09:29 AM
 
803 posts, read 556,581 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by American Expat View Post
I think we both agree that how it's called and the rules applicable makes a difference. The game today is an evolution based somewhat on rules and officiating changes included in the evolution, if the Bulls team were playing in today's league, they also would have evolved. Think about who on the Warriors stops Jordan without hand checking him...ie, not a chance.


When I think about the matchups, KD would probably have Rodman or Pippen on him so the very best defenders, they at least slow him down. Jordan is underrated as a defender and could guard either GS guard.


So my point is GS has not faced a defense like the Bulls would have put on them and yeah, the Bulls never faced a team with the shooters of the Warriors (actually no one has). My conclusion is that the teams are equal especially in the context of the Bulls evolving based on the current rules and officiating. So it's mental toughness (Bulls) versus the shooting clinic....I can understand those that pick GS but I still think the Bulls superior competitiveness wins.
And the Bulls ability to win without needing to hit 3's. Same with Shaq's Lakers. He would have just dominated the Warriors. If GSW doesn't hit their 3's, history has showed they can lose. Amazing how everyone forgets they were down 3-2 until Paul went down. Next year will be interesting to see if there is a team that can beat GSW.

By the way, Jordan was on 8 all-defensive teams, so I think he could slow Curry or Klay down. Actually, I would pretty much guarantee he would.
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,264 posts, read 26,231,676 times
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Is it the modern defenses that make it more difficult for Lebron? Or is it his lack of offensive tools?

Here we see Lebron get an isolation against Curry. Dellavedova cuts baseline but Iguodala releases him and stays in place to shade Lebron, taking away his drive to the basket. Lebron seeing that he can't drive to the basket decides to take a contested step back 3 against Curry. This is the only choice he had in this situation, right, and Jordan would have been forced to do the same exact thing against a modern defense, right?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-493G9WCGxg

The first thing we see Jordan do is flash across the lane to establish position in the post. He's not going to come all the way to the 3 point line with the hopes of being screened on to a smaller defender that he bully with brute force on the way to the basket. He doesn't need to do that because he has skills and feels perfectly at home operating on the block. He spins to shoot the fade away over Reggie Miller but Antonio Davis has come over from the weakside to swat his shot away. What does Jordan do? Does he collect his shot and allow himself to be trapped and turn the ball over? Does he spin back the other direction to allow Mark Jackson to strip him? No. He fakes the shot to get both defenders in the air and then steps threw them for the layup.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1D9josLVgM
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,264 posts, read 26,231,676 times
Reputation: 11726
But, but, but, if defenses tried to trap Jordan all the time, and shaded him with a big, he'd have no choice but to retreat to the 3 point line and shoot a step back 3. There's no way he could simply shoot over Curry, Draymond or Iguodala!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztb3KhRsBQc

The most unstoppable move in the history of the game (maybe second most unstoppable next to the skyhook). This is such a beautiful clip because it shows Jordan's mastery of ball fakes to confuse defenders and ward off double teams and traps.
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Old 06-20-2018, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,211 posts, read 2,827,100 times
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^^^damn it's that time of the year your Jordan crush uncontrollably rages out, look forward to the next several months of this...
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Old 06-20-2018, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,264 posts, read 26,231,676 times
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Curry is also turnover prone when trapped. Here are 4 turnovers in a single game, all of which were the result of traps.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xht00SDwe7o
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Old 06-20-2018, 02:29 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,874,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Curry is also turnover prone when trapped. Here are 4 turnovers in a single game, all of which were the result of traps.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xht00SDwe7o
Jordan had some rough games, too. Remember these prime MJ games in the playoffs?

https://www.basketball-reference.com...205210CHI.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com...205140NYK.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com...205090NYK.html

Curry's MO is to beat the trap with passing. He does it routinely and creates 4 on 3 opportunities for his team. It has become suicide for teams to trap Curry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TR95 View Post
And the Bulls ability to win without needing to hit 3's. Same with Shaq's Lakers. He would have just dominated the Warriors. If GSW doesn't hit their 3's, history has showed they can lose. Amazing how everyone forgets they were down 3-2 until Paul went down. Next year will be interesting to see if there is a team that can beat GSW.

By the way, Jordan was on 8 all-defensive teams, so I think he could slow Curry or Klay down. Actually, I would pretty much guarantee he would.
Shaq and MJ have both lost playoff series. The Warriors have, too. Curry and Klay have faced a lot of all-defensive players. They still get theirs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Help defense was not invented circa 2014. That is something that has been taught and permitted at every level of basketball since forever. Any time a player rotates over to help defend another player, that is "help" defense.

What was illegal in the 80s/90s was not help defense, but "shading." Shading is effective against a player who can't shoot just as zone defense is effective against players that can't shoot. Michael Jordan, however, could shoot, and he could do it right over the top of people even better than Kevin Durant could. When a player shoots well from longer ranges, shading him isn't a very effective defensive strategy since he can rise up and shoot over defenders.

The principle behind any zone defense is creating a numerical advantage against any one offensive player. The same is obviously true with a double or triple team. If Jordan was constantly beating three defenders and still getting buckets, why would a zone defense (which doesn't fully exist in the NBA anyway) or a shading defender be more to difficult to score against? As an avid player who still competes in semi-competitive leagues to this day, I'd like to hear how zones would be more effective stopping a hot player than hard traps and doubles would.
The NBA's illegal defense rule prevented teams from consistently bringing effective help because it was easy to pull potential help defenders away from the play. Great defenses now play to bring effective help on every possession.

The strong side loading deployed masterfully by Thibs and Garnett is now a reliable tool in the kit of the NBA's great defenses.

The difference between help in the zone era and hard doubles and traps is that the doubling defender has to fully commit to the double. This creates holes in the defense elsewhere that can be exploited by a ball handler is a capable passer.

If it's not obvious: I'm not saying that MJ would be stopped in the zone era. I'm saying that his game would be different because defenses are more sophisticated and better positioned to take away the drive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
LBJ's mediocre post offense is a product of poor footwork, not the rules. Durant, Derozan, Livingston, Leonard, and Irving all have good to solid post-up games because they have good footwork. Even Andre Miller had a pretty strong post game pushing 40 years of age. He could pull it off because he had good footwork and tons of guile. Lebron is a wily vet, but his offensive repertoire is almost completely lacking in guile with none of the fakes and craftiness that Kyrie Irving, much less Michael Jordan, possesses.

Lebron doesn't even have a real pull up jumper. And by "pull up," I don't mean bringing the ball up and shooting a 3. I mean driving hard to the basket with a couple of dribbles and then stopping on a dime to elevate for a jumper. With him, he either beats you with raw power and athleticism to the basket, uses his off arm to push defenders away as he barrels his way down low, or settles for a 3 pointer if Options #1 and 2 aren't available.

With a guy like Jordan, you could bring all the help you wanted, but he could split double teams off the dribble. He could spin away from them with his excellent footwork and shoot a fadeaway. Or he could spin away from the double team and then go straight to the basket and throw it down, which is exactly what he did in that infamous playoff game against the Knicks.
LBJ is not a great shooter, but he is a decent shooter. He has worked on and considerably improved his shot since Tyson Chandler and Rick Carlisle exposed its absence in 2011 to get a title for Dallas. LeBron is a phenomenal offensive player. He is more overpowering than MJ was and he is a better passer than MJ was. He is not as good at shooting as MJ was. They are different players. LBJ does not have poor footwork or a lack of guile. He has effective pump fakes, dribble fakes, and a killer spin in the post. He can finish with both hands, use the glass, and he's got a nice runner now. As he gets to the midrange & in, he is a threat to pass to almost any spot on the court.
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Old 06-20-2018, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,264 posts, read 26,231,676 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Jordan had some rough games, too. Remember these prime MJ games in the playoffs?
I never said Jordan never had bad games. I said that double teams, traps and blitzes were not effective against him whereas they have been against Curry and Durant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Curry's MO is to beat the trap with passing. He does it routinely and creates 4 on 3 opportunities for his team. It has become suicide for teams to trap Curry.
When you have Durant and Thompson to pass the ball to, it becomes suicide to trap Anthony Bennett.

Jordan averaged 43.7 PPG on 50.5% shooting in a playoff series with Orlando Woolridge and Dave Corzine as his two best options. If Curry had those same options, teams would simply double him to death and he wouldn't have the size, strength or athleticism to do much about it. We all saw how the Cavs and Thunder were able to pump the brakes on him. Of course, things are different now that he has a former MVP and 4-time scoring champ to ease the load for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
The NBA's illegal defense rule prevented teams from consistently bringing effective help because it was easy to pull potential help defenders away from the play. Great defenses now play to bring effective help on every possession.
Teams brought help against Jordan every single possession. There has never been a perimeter player doubled as often as Michael Jordan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
The difference between help in the zone era and hard doubles and traps is that the doubling defender has to fully commit to the double. This creates holes in the defense elsewhere that can be exploited by a ball handler is a capable passer.
But I asked earlier how a zone defense is going to stop Jordan from scoring when a triple team can't stop him from scoring. Forget passing out of the double team. What chance do you have stopping him with a weak zone if 3 guys draped all over him can't stop his fadeaway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
If it's not obvious: I'm not saying that MJ would be stopped in the zone era. I'm saying that his game would be different because defenses are more sophisticated and better positioned to take away the drive.
I'm going to say this one more time: Jordan's game was not predicated on his ability to drive. During the second 3-peat, Jordan was mostly a midrange jump shooter, not a slashing terror, and there was nothing anyone could do about it. If Jordan was isolated against Curry with Draymond or Iggy standing behind him, he would simply rise up and shoot over him. They'd have to bring a hard trap against him because he would slaughter Curry in the midrange the same way he slaughtered Starks, Dumars, Johnson, Drexler, Russell, Mason, Maxwell, Wilkins and anyone else who was unlucky enough to pull him as their defensive assignment.

You've not stated a reason why his game would be any different or less effective other than saying "zone defense." Demar Derozan is a poor man's version of Kobe with worse 3 point shooting and he's able to score 27 PPG by driving and hitting midrange jumpers despite this "zone defense." I guess his basketball IQ is just that much higher than Jordan's, huh?
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Old 06-20-2018, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,264 posts, read 26,231,676 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
LBJ does not have poor footwork or a lack of guile.
He *does* have poor footwork and he does lack guile. Granted, this article is from 2011, but the observation largely rings true today.

Quote:
Compare his game to Dirk Nowitzki's. When Dirk has the ball at the top of the key, he can shoot over you (he's 7 feet and a better shooter than LeBron); he can spin left with the dribble and drive to the basket with a left-handed scoop layup; he can dribble and hit a pull-up jumper; he can spin left and hit a fadeaway. Dirk has undoubtedly worked hours and hours developing this game. It takes a tremendous amount of footwork and athletic ability to do what he does. LeBron doesn't have that footwork or that developed set of skills. Bill Simmons -- who has watched a million more hours of basketball than I have -- intimated at this in a column last week when he wrote, "Is it possible that (LeBron) is so talented that he never ended up concentrating on one great thing? He never developed a go-to gimmick like Dirk's high-post game, Wade's one-on-one game, Kobe's one-one-one game, Duncan's low-post game."

Dirk might not have LeBron's speed or power, but he has more basketball skills. And in the playoffs, when opponents amp up their defensive pressure from the 80 percent level offered in the regular season, it takes more than brute force, speed and an inconsistent jump shot to be a great player.
LeBron would've been lousy baseball player - SweetSpot- ESPN

When Lebron gets matched up against Curry, or J.J. Barea for that matter, he pounds the rock and uses his off arm to literally push them deeper and deeper into the paint. This might take as long as 9 seconds. That gives the defense an eternity to come over and help. His other tendency is to either pass or shoot a long 2 or 3-pointer if the defense rotates over an extra defender to help. He can't punish these little guys whereas Mike and Kobe would be licking their chops with these matchups.

And that's why Kyrie Irving was so deeply missed these playoffs. He was the only player on their team with the ability to get to different spots of the floor and score at will.
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Old 06-20-2018, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,264 posts, read 26,231,676 times
Reputation: 11726
Jerry West and Michael Jordan were both masters of the one hard dribble and pull up jumper. Imagine these two being on an island with Steph Curry.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtVSnCfvu3w

What defense is Thibs going to come up with to stop that?
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Old 06-20-2018, 08:02 PM
 
51,912 posts, read 41,783,059 times
Reputation: 32385
If anyone is *REMOTELY* comparing 2 time (and no more coming) 1st team NBA curry to Jordan....you're on Cracktacular.

Curry isn't even a legit top 30 player.

HOF? For sure. But even at his prime he suffers in comparison to others and he had no sustained peak of 10 years like the greats.

No offense, but let's be sane here.

Hey look, isn't that another Warriors player with the finals mvp trophy? Oh wait, Steph has zero.
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