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Old 06-21-2018, 03:01 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,876,835 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I never said Jordan never had bad games. I said that double teams, traps and blitzes were not effective against him whereas they have been against Curry and Durant.

When you have Durant and Thompson to pass the ball to, it becomes suicide to trap Anthony Bennett.

Jordan averaged 43.7 PPG on 50.5% shooting in a playoff series with Orlando Woolridge and Dave Corzine as his two best options. If Curry had those same options, teams would simply double him to death and he wouldn't have the size, strength or athleticism to do much about it. We all saw how the Cavs and Thunder were able to pump the brakes on him. Of course, things are different now that he has a former MVP and 4-time scoring champ to ease the load for him.

Teams brought help against Jordan every single possession. There has never been a perimeter player doubled as often as Michael Jordan.

But I asked earlier how a zone defense is going to stop Jordan from scoring when a triple team can't stop him from scoring. Forget passing out of the double team. What chance do you have stopping him with a weak zone if 3 guys draped all over him can't stop his fadeaway?

I'm going to say this one more time: Jordan's game was not predicated on his ability to drive. During the second 3-peat, Jordan was mostly a midrange jump shooter, not a slashing terror, and there was nothing anyone could do about it. If Jordan was isolated against Curry with Draymond or Iggy standing behind him, he would simply rise up and shoot over him. They'd have to bring a hard trap against him because he would slaughter Curry in the midrange the same way he slaughtered Starks, Dumars, Johnson, Drexler, Russell, Mason, Maxwell, Wilkins and anyone else who was unlucky enough to pull him as their defensive assignment.

You've not stated a reason why his game would be any different or less effective other than saying "zone defense." Demar Derozan is a poor man's version of Kobe with worse 3 point shooting and he's able to score 27 PPG by driving and hitting midrange jumpers despite this "zone defense." I guess his basketball IQ is just that much higher than Jordan's, huh?
Curry has been routinely breaking down traps since '13-14. He put up gaudy numbers against attempted traps in '15-16 without KD. Teams try to help against Curry every play. They try to help against him off-ball, creating open dunks and shots for his teammates.

I didn't see either the Cavs or the Thunder put the brakes on Curry, as you claim.

You can't seem to recall that the threat of Jordan's drive impacted how players defended him from the triple-threat position, creating space for him. He used jab steps and feints that capitalized on the threat of his drive in order to create space. Modern defenses are much less concerned about the drive because they expect help to be in position. I would expect Jordan to pass more frequently against modern defenses than he did against 90s defenses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
He *does* have poor footwork and he does lack guile. Granted, this article is from 2011, but the observation largely rings true today.

LeBron would've been lousy baseball player - SweetSpot- ESPN

When Lebron gets matched up against Curry, or J.J. Barea for that matter, he pounds the rock and uses his off arm to literally push them deeper and deeper into the paint. This might take as long as 9 seconds. That gives the defense an eternity to come over and help. His other tendency is to either pass or shoot a long 2 or 3-pointer if the defense rotates over an extra defender to help. He can't punish these little guys whereas Mike and Kobe would be licking their chops with these matchups.

And that's why Kyrie Irving was so deeply missed these playoffs. He was the only player on their team with the ability to get to different spots of the floor and score at will.
LeBron shows off footwork and drains fadeaway - ESPN Video

No footwork there.

Or here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DinqVE0yp4M

It's silly to argue that LBJ has neither footwork nor guile. People who claim that his effectiveness is mere physicality are stuck in what, 2006?

Passing out when the help defender commits is smart basketball. Punishing a player for making winning plays is silly.

The Mavs had a brilliant defensive plan to defend LBJ as a team in 2011, principally stemming from Tyson Chandler's paint presence. LBJ's jumper wasn't reliable back then. He realized that he needed a reliable jumper, and he developed one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Jerry West and Michael Jordan were both masters of the one hard dribble and pull up jumper. Imagine these two being on an island with Steph Curry.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtVSnCfvu3w

What defense is Thibs going to come up with to stop that?
The defense that the Warriors used against Harden, LBJ, Kyrie, Westbrook, and KD. Switch and force contested jumpers or drives into help. You can't stop a great scorer, but you can reduce their effectiveness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
If anyone is *REMOTELY* comparing 2 time (and no more coming) 1st team NBA curry to Jordan....you're on Cracktacular.

Curry isn't even a legit top 30 player.

HOF? For sure. But even at his prime he suffers in comparison to others and he had no sustained peak of 10 years like the greats.

No offense, but let's be sane here.

Hey look, isn't that another Warriors player with the finals mvp trophy? Oh wait, Steph has zero.
Curry is a 30 year old with 3 titles, 2 MVPs, and a trail of broken NBA defenses. '15-16 was one of the greatest offensive seasons in NBA history.

Before this season, Backpicks had him at #32 all-time (4th among active players), with a top 5 peak (before his injury, Backpicks expected this past season to catapult him to the low 20s all-time). The Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | Back Picks

If Curry were healthy this year, he would've joined Harden on the 1st team. Titles are more important, though.
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Old 06-21-2018, 03:39 PM
 
51,974 posts, read 41,825,420 times
Reputation: 32422
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Curry is a 30 year old with 3 titles, 2 MVPs, and a trail of broken NBA defenses. '15-16 was one of the greatest offensive seasons in NBA history.

Before this season, Backpicks had him at #32 all-time (4th among active players), with a top 5 peak (before his injury, Backpicks expected this past season to catapult him to the low 20s all-time). The Backpicks GOAT: The 40 Best Careers in NBA History | Back Picks

If Curry were healthy this year, he would've joined Harden on the 1st team. Titles are more important, though.
Yeah, like I said....Curry isn't top 30.

#32 seems reasonable.

Yes, Curry had an excellent offensive year in 15-16.

Curry 15-16: 30.1pts, 6.7 Asst, 5.4 Reb, 50% shooting

Jordan did that for about a decade, plus the 9 all-defensive selections.

Curry's best season 15-16 is #31 on the NBA's list of top offensive win shares.

Jordan has 5 of the spots higher than that.

I mean let's not insult Curry by comparing him to Jordan like it's meant to diminish him. Curry is awesome, #32 all time is nothing to sneer at that's for dang sure.
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Old 06-21-2018, 06:01 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,876,835 times
Reputation: 2263
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Yeah, like I said....Curry isn't top 30.

#32 seems reasonable.
I agree that #32 is reasonable for the career of Curry before his 3rd title at the age of 30.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Yes, Curry had an excellent offensive year in 15-16.
One of the best ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Curry 15-16: 30.1pts, 6.7 Asst, 5.4 Reb, 50% shooting
Barely scratches the surface. At the least you should add .669 TS%, .630 eFG%, 73 wins, and joined Steve Nash and Steve Kerr (shortened line) in the 50/45/90 club.

MJ never had a .630 eFG% (career-high season of .550). MJ never had a .669 TS% (career-high of .614). MJ had a 72 win season. He was never in the 50/40/90 club. Curry's efficiency on volume scoring is off-the-charts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Jordan did that for about a decade, plus the 9 all-defensive selections.
See above, Jordan never did it. Jordan was an excellent defender, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Curry's best season 15-16 is #31 on the NBA's list of top offensive win shares.
Which goes to show only the limitations of that statistic--it's not very good, and especially bad for old seasons (pre-1972).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Jordan has 5 of the spots higher than that.

I mean let's not insult Curry by comparing him to Jordan like it's meant to diminish him. Curry is awesome, #32 all time is nothing to sneer at that's for dang sure.
Agreed that #32 is not an insult. But I agree with Backpicks that Curry's ongoing peak is ~top 5 all-time. Curry's range added a dimension to the basketball court much like Wilt did with vertical space.
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Old 06-21-2018, 09:07 PM
 
51,974 posts, read 41,825,420 times
Reputation: 32422
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
I agree that #32 is reasonable for the career of Curry before his 3rd title at the age of 30.
...where he wasn't the best player on the team.

Also, how the hell do you make the top 5 with mediocre defense?

LMFAO. What are you 16?

Guy makes 2 all-nba 1st teams his whole career, plays on packed teams, never wins a finals MVP.....and you're pushing him into the top 5 all time?

BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAH.

Wake me up when he wins a finals MVP....lmao @u.
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Old 06-22-2018, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
MJ never had a .630 eFG% (career-high season of .550). MJ never had a .669 TS% (career-high of .614). MJ had a 72 win season. He was never in the 50/40/90 club. Curry's efficiency on volume scoring is off-the-charts.
I have a beef with people who throw around TS% as if it shows that modern players are more efficient than the players of the past. Sure, a 3 pointer is more efficient than a 2-point shot because one shot yields 3 points while the other yields only 2, but the predominance of 3-pointers in the modern game, and our reliance on TS% as a reliable metric of efficiency leads us to all types of conclusions that don't make any sense when you really think about it.

For example, my eyes tell me that Larry Bird was a better shooter and more efficient player than Kyle Lowry. Yet I go to Basketball-Reference and see that they have an identical TS% (56.4%).

If we really want to compare apples-to-apples, I've always thought points per possession is a better metric since it accounts for pace, usage, free throw shooting, field goal percentage and turnovers. It's literally the most straightforward concept you can imagine: what do you do with X number of possessions? TS% tries to estimate that, but why should we rely on an estimate if we have data on what players do with each possession?
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Old 06-22-2018, 08:14 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
...where he wasn't the best player on the team.

Also, how the hell do you make the top 5 with mediocre defense?

LMFAO. What are you 16?

Guy makes 2 all-nba 1st teams his whole career, plays on packed teams, never wins a finals MVP.....and you're pushing him into the top 5 all time?

BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAH.

Wake me up when he wins a finals MVP....lmao @u.
There's no way Curry will go down as a Top 5 player because there's still some argument about whether he's a Top 5 player right now.

Lebron and KD are definitely better than him. So let's say for the sake of argument that Curry is absolutely better than Harden, Westbrook and Anthony Davis. That gives us a Top 5 of...

Jordan
Kareem
Lebron
KD
Curry

I don't think so. Curry's prime started way too late and he's far too one-dimensional to probably even break the Top 15 much less the Top 5. He'll go down as the greatest shooter to ever do it, and will be remembered as a transformative player, but nobody will be putting him over Magic, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, etc. any time soon.
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Old 06-22-2018, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
I didn't see either the Cavs or the Thunder put the brakes on Curry, as you claim.
That's funny because I could have sworn he played a Game 7 in the NBA Finals against the Cavs where he went 6-19, shot 40% for the series, scored 8 points below his regular season average in the Finals, and shot 1-12 when being guarded by Lebron. My memory may be faulty though. Does anybody else remember seeing such a game? Maybe not. Oh well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
You can't seem to recall that the threat of Jordan's drive impacted how players defended him from the triple-threat position, creating space for him. He used jab steps and feints that capitalized on the threat of his drive in order to create space. Modern defenses are much less concerned about the drive because they expect help to be in position. I would expect Jordan to pass more frequently against modern defenses than he did against 90s defenses.
It sounds like you weren't even alive when Jordan played or at least not old enough to remember much about him.

The main difference between Lebron and Jordan is that you can greatly reduce the effectiveness of the former by reducing him to a jump shooter. Lebron is a historically streaky shooter and defenders will sometimes sag off and give him the jumpshot. Teams can sometimes get burned by employing that strategy if his shot gets going, but it can often be an effective defensive strategy against him because his shot is not that consistent. We've all seen games where defenders sag 6-9 feet off Lebron yet he doesn't shoot.

I have never seen a game where the defense gave Jordan an inch of space. If you sagged off to stop his drive, he'd just knock down jumpers. Since one defender wasn't enough to stop him, teams would bring 2. When 2 wasn't enough, teams would bring 3. It didn't really matter what you did, he was going to score 33-38 points per night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
No footwork there.
Lebron does not have good footwork. Period. It would be like showing a video of him draining 3s and calling him an elite 3 point shooter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
It's silly to argue that LBJ has neither footwork nor guile. People who claim that his effectiveness is mere physicality are stuck in what, 2006?
Nobody said "his effectiveness is mere physicality." Lebron is a gifted passer/playmaker and has a sky high basketball IQ. But he does not have the offensive arsenal of a Jordan or Kobe or even a Kyrie or a C.J. McCollum. He just doesn't. He uses brute strength to bully his way to the basket, often committing uncalled offensive fouls by simply stiff-arming defenders. That's why Kyrie was more often than not the closer in big games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Passing out when the help defender commits is smart basketball. Punishing a player for making winning plays is silly.
Passing the ball away isn't always a winning play. At the end of Game 7, Kevin Love of all people was putting the brakes on Curry and he was forced to give the ball to Green. Green gave it back and Curry couldn't score against Love in isolation. If Curry had Jordan's scoring abilities, he would have scored and that would have been that. Same thing with Lebron passing the ball to Varejao in the clutch. There's a time to play team ball and there's a time to play hero ball. As Jordan said during his HOF speech, "If playing team ball means we win, then I play team ball. If dropping 50 or 60 points mean we'll win, then I'll do that. Either way, we're going to win."
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Old 06-22-2018, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,258,197 times
Reputation: 11726
There may not be an "I" in team, but there is an "I" in W-I-N.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOuNIyv_W7U
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Old 06-22-2018, 05:21 PM
 
11,679 posts, read 7,054,084 times
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TS% is historically biased seeing as players are shooting many more 3s in today’s game. Just this year Curry, Lebron, Harden and Durant all had a TS% better than Jordan’s best offensive season in which he averaged 35 ppg on 54% shooting.
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Old 06-24-2018, 12:33 AM
 
Location: Western Asia
3,187 posts, read 1,445,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TR95 View Post
And the Bulls ability to win without needing to hit 3's. Same with Shaq's Lakers. He would have just dominated the Warriors. If GSW doesn't hit their 3's, history has showed they can lose. Amazing how everyone forgets they were down 3-2 until Paul went down. Next year will be interesting to see if there is a team that can beat GSW.

By the way, Jordan was on 8 all-defensive teams, so I think he could slow Curry or Klay down. Actually, I would pretty much guarantee he would.
I never saw Jordan struggle defending anyone period....and that includes guarding the best point guard of that era (Isiah T)....so he clearly would shut down Klay and I believe he would severely thwart what Curry wants to do, at least he slows him down significantly. The problem facing the Warriors is that with Klay & Curry, you can't leave them for a second to double team and now the same goes for KD....so you have to have defenders on each of those guys that can hold them without help....Jordan, Harper, Scottie, Rodman is a defensive combination that GS has not seen.
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