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Old 04-03-2018, 10:34 AM
 
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He couldn't win until the Lakers, Celtics and Pistons got old. There were no great teams during his 90s reign. Not one. None of those Knicks teams was better than Dwight Howard's Orlando Magic.

I believe there are four reasonable answers to the GOAT question: Wilt, Kareem, MJ and Lebron. No wrong answers there, but Six-Rings Dogmatism is silly. The rings don't tell the story.
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Old 04-03-2018, 11:34 AM
 
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The Portland Trail Blazers, Phoenix Suns & Utah Jazz were very good and he took them down and it wasnt sweeps either. The bulls had a bunch of role players that all knew their roles and did them well.

There was more parity back then too and every superstar wasnt trying to team up to beat everyone else.
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Old 04-03-2018, 11:34 AM
 
Location: spring tx
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here we go, another "jordan couldnt win" thread. wooo hoooo!
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Old 04-03-2018, 12:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
The Portland Trail Blazers, Phoenix Suns & Utah Jazz were very good and he took them down and it wasnt sweeps either. The bulls had a bunch of role players that all knew their roles and did them well.

There was more parity back then too and every superstar wasnt trying to team up to beat everyone else.
There wasn't more parity back then. Jordan played with a stacked team. Jordan is a top-4 player of all-time...arguably GOAT. Pippen is arguably the greatest perimeter defender of all time, and a top-10 player of his era. Pippen was basically Kahwi Leonard with playmaking, instead of shooting. For the first three-peat, they had Horace Grant, who might go down as the most underrated player of that era. He was a legitimate beast, and advanced metric superstar. There's a reason the 95 Bulls didn't get past the Orlando Magic, and it wasn't Jordan's rust. Without Grant or Rodman, the team simply wasn't stacked enough to steam-roll teams.

They re-loaded, with all-time great defender and rebounder, Rodamn, and Kukoc made the leap.

Those Portland teams won, but historically speaking, they were pretty weak. Their second best player, was a slightly lesser Kyle Lowry. Cliff Robinson was slightly above average. That wasn't a powerhouse team.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...layers&y2=2018

The Suns were good for like, two seasons. KJ was better than most people remember. Majerle wasn't. He was a poor rebounder, inefficient scorer and defensive liability.

The Jazz were good.
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Old 04-03-2018, 01:27 PM
 
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For the sake of clarity; this is not a knock on Jordan, but rather a critique of the SIX RINGZ narrative. Jordan has six rings because he played in a weak era. The addition of Charlotte, Orlando, Miami, Toronto and Vancouver severely diluted the NBA talent pool, and teams hadn't really tapped into the international market.
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Old 04-03-2018, 08:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
He couldn't win until the Lakers, Celtics and Pistons got old. There were no great teams during his 90s reign. Not one. None of those Knicks teams was better than Dwight Howard's Orlando Magic.

I believe there are four reasonable answers to the GOAT question: Wilt, Kareem, MJ and Lebron. No wrong answers there, but Six-Rings Dogmatism is silly. The rings don't tell the story.

Wrong any of the Knicks teams could beat the Dwight Howard Magic team. Where did you get your facts.
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Old 04-04-2018, 04:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Natepi007 View Post
Wrong any of the Knicks teams could beat the Dwight Howard Magic team. Where did you get your facts.
As a Knicks fan, living in NYC, I watched that team a lot. Iíve also revisited some of those games, and done a deep-dive on the stats. Those teams were good for their weak era, but they certainly wouldnít challenge any of the better teams from the 80ís or the modern NBA.
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Old 04-04-2018, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
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Gladhands, you're my guy, and you're not wrong!

There is something happening that is hard for some people to admit, but it's unfolding by the year and probably has been since Lebron's return to Cleveland and his '15 Finals dominance in a loss. And it's impacting more than Lebron...

The Jordan "6-0/Six Rings" argument is losing steam, and it's losing support. This isn't to say that automatically means people don't think of Jordan as GOAT (although that crowd is lessening, too); the Jordan 6-0, open/shut argument ran unchecked for two decades, uncontested. It was bound to be challenged when a legitimate challenger for Greatest Of All Time came along. There were other challengers on the way; none if them were anything like Lebron James...

Rather, what it means is that to more and more reasoning-based people, and with the fact that we now have technology that allows us to disect previous eras more intricately, you can no longer use Jordan's six wins as an open/shut argument. It holds little relevancy---does it mean something? Sure, it means something. It isnt the variable by which to solely claim Jordan was the greatest...
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Old 04-04-2018, 02:16 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,876,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
Gladhands, you're my guy, and you're not wrong!

There is something happening that is hard for some people to admit, but it's unfolding by the year and probably has been since Lebron's return to Cleveland and his '15 Finals dominance in a loss. And it's impacting more than Lebron...

The Jordan "6-0/Six Rings" argument is losing steam, and it's losing support. This isn't to say that automatically means people don't think of Jordan as GOAT (although that crowd is lessening, too); the Jordan 6-0, open/shut argument ran unchecked for two decades, uncontested. It was bound to be challenged when a legitimate challenger for Greatest Of All Time came along. There were other challengers on the way; none if them were anything like Lebron James...

Rather, what it means is that to more and more reasoning-based people, and with the fact that we now have technology that allows us to disect previous eras more intricately, you can no longer use Jordan's six wins as an open/shut argument. It holds little relevancy---does it mean something? Sure, it means something. It isnt the variable by which to solely claim Jordan was the greatest...
Jordan as "unquestionable GOAT" was always a fairy tale bound to dissipate. The NBA and Jordan became global icons in the 90s. Distance offers greater perspective. Of course, MJ was never distant from Magic, Kareem, and Russell. LBJ is in their arena, as well. The 6-0 argument looks silly in the face of Bill Russell's 11 titles. Jordan of course belongs on basketball's Mt. Rushmore. His talents, production, and winning justify it. He is a basketball legend. But he is not--and never was--the first among equals on that mountain.
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Old 04-04-2018, 08:48 PM
 
51,974 posts, read 41,815,822 times
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Hey guys.

It's easy to estimate the value of one 1967 mustang against another.
It's easy to estimate the value of an Andy Warhol print from a run of 500.
When you try to estimate the value of something like the Mona Lisa if it were to come up for sale????
Or if they were to remove the mural of the last supper????

Who freakin' knows?

When we get talking about the ELITE. Guys like Wilt, Bird, Russell, Magic, Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Mikan, Lebron and so forth it always gets difficult because they're all so unique.

Clearly, and lets be honest, what is going on here is pre-Lebron-retirementfans. Because previously "rings" were by far the major determinent of success.

I'm a LONGTIME BUlls fan. However, I've also argued against the rings simplicity for years.

When you get near the elite end of the spectrum, and I put Lebron there, it is frankly impossible and there are too many variables to separate the top people.

Certainly rings is not one of them as evidenced by idiots trying to push Robert Horry around here into the HOF many years back because "he won rings"....um he also effed up too in the playoffs.

So basically, there will never be consensus on this topic by any fair-minded impartial group of individuals.

Lebron will go down as top 5 in the league imo and arguably GOAT. He's clearly a notch above some legends as Bird, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe....but saying he's above Jordan, Kareem, etc.......mmmmmmm blurry and depends upon how you ask the question.

P.S. The problem with Jordan is WHERE you find a fault. Yes, he had Pippen. However, for the first 3 championships he had only Pippen that is a HOF player. It just gets so messy across eras. I fully admit that as you try to pick a GOAT it just all falls apart depending on biased selection measurements.

P.s.s. If you start factoring what a player did for the league? Then Jordan wins by a mile and I think that for the people in the industry, collecting those much much larger paychecks. They tend to favor Jordan for that reason.

Last edited by Mathguy; 04-04-2018 at 08:59 PM..
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