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Old 04-17-2018, 08:21 PM
 
11,680 posts, read 7,067,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
So a freak athlete like Javale McGee or Nate Robinson makes any play style irrelevant? Basketball talent is simply not athleticism. MJ & LeBron are great basketball players, not mere athletes. Both continued to be great basketball players as their athleticism was surpassed by younger players.

I guarantee you that any NBA team today would build around Kareem, or Olajuwon, or Yao, or Shaq. These were great basketball players then and they would be great basketball players now. The Pels are building around AD, who is a great basketball player. You list a bunch of "spread the court" players who can't spread the court. Giannis, Simmons, and Westbrook are not good shooters. LeBron has a solid outside shot, but is far more dangerous working from the midrange & in. Lillard & Kyrie aren't leading winners.

Top 3 NBA players today: LBJ (big), Harden (middle), Curry (small)
Next 3 NBA players today: KD (big), AD (big), Giannis (big)

As for '95, Richmond & Glen Rice were top 10 scorers, with Penny, Payton, Sprewell, Barros, and Rider all in the top 20. You, of course, chose one of those years when one of the greatest scorers ever--a guard--wasn't playing. Take a look at efficiency in '95: TS% leaders include 3 point guards in the top 5, and five more guards in 6-10.

Taking more 3s is a necessary response to a pro league that allows zone defense. You can't effectively drive on a zone. You can't effectively ISO the mid & low post against a zone. To post against a zone, you need to spread the floor with shooters and you need a post player with passing ability.

You also can't overemphasize scoring in importance. Wins are important. Playoff success is important. Tim Duncan continued to thrive in today's NBA. Kevin Garnett & the Gasols & KD & LBJ & Dwight Howard all had tremendous success in the pace & space era. Al Horford has been putting up big win totals since his Atlanta days.

Great players are great players.
What in the world do Javale McGee and Nate Robinson do that put them in the same realm of Lebron and Jordan? McGee has length which allows him to block shots and Robinson is fast...but what else? You severely underrate Jordan and Lebron as athletic freaks. Jordan is 6í6Ē with GOAT level explosion/first step/elevation/body control - plus he has long arms and HUGE hands. Lebron is 6í8Ē 250lbs with nearly Jordan-level athleticism - Ďnuff said. If youíre crafting athletes to play in the NBA, you basically make copies of Jordan and Lebron.

So in other words, youíre saying that over the last 10 years there simply hasnít been a big man skilled enough to build around? Why is it that this is the only decade where these big men havenít shown up? Could it be that NBA teams all play outside/in at this point? Surely with billions of people on the planet there would be ONE traditional center with skills? Perhaps there ARE but NBA teams simply canít win as much playing that style thus basically all teams are led by wings and guards.

You donít have to be a spread the court type player to benefit from playing in a spread the court basketball world. That should obvious.

Your list of top players is almost exclusively players that play like guards. Obviously itís a benefit if you can play like a guard at 6í9Ē. Even AD can shoot 3s - Ewing/Mourning/Hakeem, etc werenít doing that.

Bringing up Mitch Richmond does nothing to negate the fact that players playing as traditional bigs dominated scoring - Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, Malone, etc were regularly top scorers in the NBA. There are ZERO traditional bigs leading the league in scoring now. MJ is basically the only exclusion and as I pointed out heís top 0.1% of genetically gifted athletes. Itís now a guard-skill focused league. When is the last time a post-up big won MVP? You canít argue against stats.

When is the last time Tim Duncan was a top 5 player in the NBA? You are bringing up the Gasols and Dwight Howard as evidence that bigs are dominant in todayís NBA? Thatís silly. KGís prime years (not a traditional big) were well over a decade ago. And Al Horford whoís a good player but averages 13ppg? Good luck winning anything with that being your primary offensive threat. Face it, itís a guard (yes some of them are tall) dominated league more than it has ever been...and becoming more so every year.
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Old 04-18-2018, 11:30 AM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,880,628 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
What in the world do Javale McGee and Nate Robinson do that put them in the same realm of Lebron and Jordan? McGee has length which allows him to block shots and Robinson is fast...but what else? You severely underrate Jordan and Lebron as athletic freaks. Jordan is 6í6Ē with GOAT level explosion/first step/elevation/body control - plus he has long arms and HUGE hands. Lebron is 6í8Ē 250lbs with nearly Jordan-level athleticism - Ďnuff said. If youíre crafting athletes to play in the NBA, you basically make copies of Jordan and Lebron.
Javale & Nate are/were freak athletes. Javale is huge, fast for his size, and can jump out of the gym. Nate was fast, strong for his size, and could also jump out of the gym. They are not in the realm of LBJ & Jordan because athleticism does not create great basketball players.

Numerous examples exist: Corey Maggette & Andre Iguodala--both had the size athleticism you identify as ideal for a basketball player. Neither was on the level of GOAT. Andre is a great basketball player. Maggette was a fringe starter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
So in other words, youíre saying that over the last 10 years there simply hasnít been a big man skilled enough to build around? Why is it that this is the only decade where these big men havenít shown up? Could it be that NBA teams all play outside/in at this point? Surely with billions of people on the planet there would be ONE traditional center with skills? Perhaps there ARE but NBA teams simply canít win as much playing that style thus basically all teams are led by wings and guards.
Demarcus Cousins, AD, Embiid, KAT, Duncan, Dwight Howard, Dirk, Kevin Garnett--all bigs you can/could build around. That's not counting bigs like LBJ, Giannis, and KD who have the size of bigs but guard skills.

AD is leading a team that's putting away a team led by a pair of talented guards in round 1. Al Horford is leading a team that is putting away a team led by Giannis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
You donít have to be a spread the court type player to benefit from playing in a spread the court basketball world. That should obvious.
Dwight Howard was a dominant star in Orlando playing an inside-out game with shooters. Orlando was built around his game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Your list of top players is almost exclusively players that play like guards. Obviously itís a benefit if you can play like a guard at 6í9Ē. Even AD can shoot 3s - Ewing/Mourning/Hakeem, etc werenít doing that.

Bringing up Mitch Richmond does nothing to negate the fact that players playing as traditional bigs dominated scoring - Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, Malone, etc were regularly top scorers in the NBA. There are ZERO traditional bigs leading the league in scoring now. MJ is basically the only exclusion and as I pointed out heís top 0.1% of genetically gifted athletes. Itís now a guard-skill focused league. When is the last time a post-up big won MVP? You canít argue against stats.
Again, you are too focused on scoring. Winning basketball is much more than scoring. AD, Horford, KAT, LMA, and Gobert are the stars for current playoff teams. ISO post up, as I mentioned, is not good offense against a zone. You have to play differently. Transition and pick & roll are the most efficient sets today. Zone defense is tougher to face than man to man. MJ, Mitch, Hardaway, Mullin, Isaiah Thomas, and Allen Iverson all thrived in a pre-zone era. The gimmick offense run in the 90s was bad basketball, taking advantage of the gimmicky No Zone rule. Without zone, a dominant ISO scorer is unguardable. With zone, you need your star to be high IQ & multi-talented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
When is the last time Tim Duncan was a top 5 player in the NBA? You are bringing up the Gasols and Dwight Howard as evidence that bigs are dominant in todayís NBA? Thatís silly. KGís prime years (not a traditional big) were well over a decade ago. And Al Horford whoís a good player but averages 13ppg? Good luck winning anything with that being your primary offensive threat. Face it, itís a guard (yes some of them are tall) dominated league more than it has ever been...and becoming more so every year.
I think there's a good case for Duncan as a top 5 player in '13-'14--his age 37 season--when he led the Spurs to a 62 win season and a title. Dwight, before injuries took their toll, was absolutely a dominant player. Marc Gasol has been keeping the Grizzlies competitive for eons until this year. Pau was a key part of the Lakers' last two titles. KG was a dominant big through his age 36 season in '12-'13. Great bigs are still great players. The best players will always be the guys with the work ethic, talent, and IQ to be the greatest players. Sometimes that will be a 6'6" guard, sometimes a 6'9" center, sometimes a 6'3" guard. It depends on who the basketball gods deliver.

Horford just won two playoff games against a guy I guess you would call a guard. And he did it with a team that probably has less shooting than its opponent. AD just won two playoff games against a couple of scoring guards.
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Old 04-18-2018, 08:01 PM
 
156 posts, read 268,295 times
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Can it be argued that the style of play in any given era simply reflects the talents of the most dominant player(s) of that era? I.e. whoever was the lead dog(s) on championship set the trend/model for the rest of the league.

For this era it’s Curry and the Warriors, before that it was Kobe,Shaq, Duncan, Lebron’s Heat years, etc...I think one can argue that a force like prime Shaq would completely disrupt the 3 ball era, as your team would be trending in the way of foul trouble within the first 5 minutes. Either that, or have him shoot 70 percent from the field(mostly dunks and 2 footers).

You’d have to shoot an unattainable percentage from 3 to counter such a force down low.
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Old 04-18-2018, 08:55 PM
 
11,680 posts, read 7,067,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Javale & Nate are/were freak athletes. Javale is huge, fast for his size, and can jump out of the gym. Nate was fast, strong for his size, and could also jump out of the gym. They are not in the realm of LBJ & Jordan because athleticism does not create great basketball players.
Javale McGee and Nate Robinson are the athletic equivalent of MJ and Lebron...wow. Just wow. There has never been a 6’8 270lb player with the speed/leaping/coordination/strength/motor of Lebron and you’re willing to throw Nate Robinson and Javale McGee in the same category...it makes your argument look bad.

Quote:
Numerous examples exist: Corey Maggette & Andre Iguodala--both had the size athleticism you identify as ideal for a basketball player. Neither was on the level of GOAT. Andre is a great basketball player. Maggette was a fringe starter.
Also not on the level of MJ and Lebron. Maybe you should try throwing out someone like Dominique Wilkins.

Quote:
Demarcus Cousins, AD, Embiid, KAT, Duncan, Dwight Howard, Dirk, Kevin Garnett--all bigs you can/could build around. That's not counting bigs like LBJ, Giannis, and KD who have the size of bigs but guard skills.
As I pointed out, Duncan and KG were in their prime in what was basically a different era. Dwight Howard was an MVP level player almost a decade ago. Dirk isn’t a traditional big - he’s tall, but he isn’t making a living in the post. AD, Embiid, and KAT are all bigs that can attack from the perimeter - certainly not your traditional bigs. They’ve all attempted more 3s in one season than Ewing/Hakeem/Robinson did in their entire careers.

Quote:
AD is leading a team that's putting away a team led by a pair of talented guards in round 1. Al Horford is leading a team that is putting away a team led by Giannis.
AD and Horford have won NOTHING. Giannis is a 23 yr old - give him time.

Quote:
Dwight Howard was a dominant star in Orlando playing an inside-out game with shooters. Orlando was built around his game.
They made 1 finals almost a decade ago and were destroyed by who...a guard by the name of Kobe Bryant who averaged 32.4 ppg.


Quote:
Again, you are too focused on scoring. Winning basketball is much more than scoring. AD, Horford, KAT, LMA, and Gobert are the stars for current playoff teams. ISO post up, as I mentioned, is not good offense against a zone. You have to play differently. Transition and pick & roll are the most efficient sets today. Zone defense is tougher to face than man to man. MJ, Mitch, Hardaway, Mullin, Isaiah Thomas, and Allen Iverson all thrived in a pre-zone era. The gimmick offense run in the 90s was bad basketball, taking advantage of the gimmicky No Zone rule. Without zone, a dominant ISO scorer is unguardable. With zone, you need your star to be high IQ & multi-talented.
Horford is a star by default. The Celtics are going nowhere without a pg by the name of Kyrie Irving. Aldridge is obviously a star by default as the Spurs’ best player is a perimeter player by the name of Kawahi Leonard. The TWolves are about to get bounced in the first round by a team led by guards James Harden and Chris Paul. The Jazz are nobodies without a guard...Donovan Mitchell.

So there ya go...where are the equivalent of Ewing led Knicks, Robinson led Spurs, Hakeem led Rockets, Malone led Jazz, etc?



Quote:
I think there's a good case for Duncan as a top 5 player in '13-'14--his age 37 season--when he led the Spurs to a 62 win season and a title. Dwight, before injuries took their toll, was absolutely a dominant player. Marc Gasol has been keeping the Grizzlies competitive for eons until this year. Pau was a key part of the Lakers' last two titles. KG was a dominant big through his age 36 season in '12-'13. Great bigs are still great players. The best players will always be the guys with the work ethic, talent, and IQ to be the greatest players. Sometimes that will be a 6'6" guard, sometimes a 6'9" center, sometimes a 6'3" guard. It depends on who the basketball gods deliver.
Duncan didn’t crack the top 10 in MVP voting in 2014. He averaged 15 ppg and obviously played in a great system...Spurs won nearly 50 games this year without their best player! When was Dwight last a top 5 NBA player? Maybe 2011? Who is he in today’s NBA? Gasol has won nothing. Pau played on a Lakers team led by a perimeter player. KG last finished top 10 in MVP voting in 2008. He last averaged over 20 ppg in 2007.

Quote:
Horford just won two playoff games against a guy I guess you would call a guard. And he did it with a team that probably has less shooting than its opponent. AD just won two playoff games against a couple of scoring guards.
A couple playoff win...I guess it’s now a big man’s league lol.

Edit: your boy KAT has a career average of 6.5 ppg in the playoffs.

Last edited by eddiehaskell; 04-18-2018 at 10:06 PM..
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:07 PM
 
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NBAís best...Cavs, Rockets, Warriors, Celtics, Raptors, Blazers, Thunder, Pacers, 76ers, Jazz...all led by perimeter players. But yeah, the NBA is dominated by bigs in the post.
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Old 04-19-2018, 11:43 AM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,880,628 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Javale McGee and Nate Robinson are the athletic equivalent of MJ and Lebron...wow. Just wow. There has never been a 6í8 270lb player with the speed/leaping/coordination/strength/motor of Lebron and youíre willing to throw Nate Robinson and Javale McGee in the same category...it makes your argument look bad.

Also not on the level of MJ and Lebron. Maybe you should try throwing out someone like Dominique Wilkins.
My argument is that athleticism doesn't make great basketball players. I offer uber athletes who are not great basketball players. MJ and LBJ both have IQ, skills, and work ethic that separate them from the mere elite athletes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
As I pointed out, Duncan and KG were in their prime in what was basically a different era. Dwight Howard was an MVP level player almost a decade ago. Dirk isnít a traditional big - heís tall, but he isnít making a living in the post. AD, Embiid, and KAT are all bigs that can attack from the perimeter - certainly not your traditional bigs. Theyíve all attempted more 3s in one season than Ewing/Hakeem/Robinson did in their entire careers.
The zone era began just after 2001. Duncan and KG were dominant players as 3 point shooting increased. Dwight was an MVP-caliber player when Nash, Billups, and Allen were playing great outside-in basketball.

Dirk absolutely made a living in the post. All of the patented Dirk moves helped him dominate the mid-post. That has been the most critical part of his game.

A big's ability to shoot doesn't take away from their attack in the paint. If you force KAT & Embiid to take their shots from the perimeter, then you have won the battle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
AD and Horford have won NOTHING. Giannis is a 23 yr old - give him time.
AD is a top 5 player in the NBA. If you don't recognize it, you don't watch enough Pelicans basketball. He is leading his lower seed to a 2-0 lead against a team led by two shooting guards. Horford just wins. He led the Cs this year to a 2nd place finish and a 2-0 lead against Giannis. He led the Cs last year to 1st in the East. He led the Hawks to a 1 seed and 60+ wins. When a guy's team always wins, you can bet he can play. Your inability to recognize great bigs does not mean they don't exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
They made 1 finals almost a decade ago and were destroyed by who...a guard by the name of Kobe Bryant who averaged 32.4 ppg.
More important than Kobe's scoring was the great defense delivered by Pau, Odom, and Bynum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Horford is a star by default. The Celtics are going nowhere without a pg by the name of Kyrie Irving. Aldridge is obviously a star by default as the Spursí best player is a perimeter player by the name of Kawahi Leonard. The TWolves are about to get bounced in the first round by a team led by guards James Harden and Chris Paul. The Jazz are nobodies without a guard...Donovan Mitchell.

So there ya go...where are the equivalent of Ewing led Knicks, Robinson led Spurs, Hakeem led Rockets, Malone led Jazz, etc?
Kyrie hasn't been playing for quite some time. Horford's Cs finished the season 8-4 and are up 2-0 against Giannis. Without Horford, the Cs would never have gone anywhere.

Leonard would be the Spurs best player, but he's only played in 9 games this year. This is an Aldridge-led team.

The Wolves are not as good as the Rockets. You left off the 3rd member of the Rockets' big 3: Clint Capela. The Jazz are led by Rudy Gobert.

Ewing's Knicks never won anything. Robinson's Spurs only won when they added TD. So we had Dwight's Magic and KG's Celtics. We now have AD's Pelicans, KAT's TWolves, Embiid's 76ers, Horford's Celtics, and Gobert's Jazz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Duncan didnít crack the top 10 in MVP voting in 2014. He averaged 15 ppg and obviously played in a great system...Spurs won nearly 50 games this year without their best player! When was Dwight last a top 5 NBA player? Maybe 2011? Who is he in todayís NBA? Gasol has won nothing. Pau played on a Lakers team led by a perimeter player. KG last finished top 10 in MVP voting in 2008. He last averaged over 20 ppg in 2007.

A couple playoff win...I guess itís now a big manís league lol.

Edit: your boy KAT has a career average of 6.5 ppg in the playoffs.
TD just won. You may not recognize his greatness, but he was the pivot of the '14 team's defense and its offense. That team was not a contender without him. You just don't recognize great bigs, because you can't look past PPG.

Dwight was a top 5 player before his body broke down after leaving the Magic.

Marc Gasol has been making the Grizz a tough out in the WC playoffs for years. Pau was a critical piece of both of the most recent Lakers titles--those teams don't win without him. KG was a dominant player through the end of the Boston run. Yes, players age and eventually fall off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
NBAís best...Cavs, Rockets, Warriors, Celtics, Raptors, Blazers, Thunder, Pacers, 76ers, Jazz...all led by perimeter players. But yeah, the NBA is dominated by bigs in the post.
Cavs are led by a big who is most dangerous in the paint and midrange. Rox and Warriors are led by multi-talented point guards. Cs are led by a big who is most dangerous in the paint & midrange. Raptors are led by a scoring wing who is most dangerous in the midpost and facing up from midrange. Blazers are led by a scoring guard. Thunder are led by a scoring guard who is most dangerous attacking the rim. Pacers are led by a scoring guard who is most dangerous attacking the paint. 76ers are led by a center most dangerous in the paint. Jazz are led by a center who controls the paint defensively.

So what?
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Old 04-19-2018, 12:41 PM
 
11,680 posts, read 7,067,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
My argument is that athleticism doesn't make great basketball players. I offer uber athletes who are not great basketball players. MJ and LBJ both have IQ, skills, and work ethic that separate them from the mere elite athletes.
We are talking great athletes - we are talking the greatest athletes to ever exist in the game of basketball. That translate VERY well to any era and probably multiple sports.

Quote:
The zone era began just after 2001. Duncan and KG were dominant players as 3 point shooting increased. Dwight was an MVP-caliber player when Nash, Billups, and Allen were playing great outside-in basketball.
Well that settles it - the game of basketball hasnít changed in 17 years. Meanwhile, Iím watching the Rockets casually throw up 51 3pt attempts in a single game.

Again, I will refer you statistics: https://bballbreakdown.com/2016/12/1...nt-revolution/

From 2010 to 2017 (just 7 seasons) - 3 point attempts increased by 44%. And guess what they increased yet again in 2018. Thatís not a slight change - itís a revolution.

Quote:
Dirk absolutely made a living in the post. All of the patented Dirk moves helped him dominate the mid-post. That has been the most critical part of his game.
Dirk, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq - which doesnít belong?


Quote:
AD is a top 5 player in the NBA. If you don't recognize it, you don't watch enough Pelicans basketball. He is leading his lower seed to a 2-0 lead against a team led by two shooting guards. Horford just wins. He led the Cs this year to a 2nd place finish and a 2-0 lead against Giannis. He led the Cs last year to 1st in the East. He led the Hawks to a 1 seed and 60+ wins. When a guy's team always wins, you can bet he can play. Your inability to recognize great bigs does not mean they don't exist.
The Pelicans have won nothing. They are a 6 seed that has won 2 games against a team that was never challenging for a championship. You are using the Pelicans as an example that the NBA is a league dominated by traditional big men in the post? Thatís silly. And letís not forget - AD attempted 162 3s this season...the most in his career. As I said, the league is dominated by perimeter players and even centers are moving their game to the perimeter.

Quote:
More important than Kobe's scoring was the great defense delivered by Pau, Odom, and Bynum.
LOL, no. Having the best player in the world at the time was more important.

Quote:
Kyrie hasn't been playing for quite some time. Horford's Cs finished the season 8-4 and are up 2-0 against Giannis. Without Horford, the Cs would never have gone anywhere.
The Celtics arenít doing anything without Kyrie.

Quote:
Leonard would be the Spurs best player, but he's only played in 9 games this year. This is an Aldridge-led team.
A team thatís doing nothing without their best player and former finals MVP.

Quote:
The Wolves are not as good as the Rockets. You left off the 3rd member of the Rockets' big 3: Clint Capela. The Jazz are led by Rudy Gobert.
Clint Capela - the guy who was deemed more valuable than former MVP candidate Dwight Howard? Regardless, the Rockets are led by perimeter players as I mentioned.

And are you insane? Donovan Mitchell is averaging 28/8/3/2 yet the Jazz are led by Gobert? Just heard that he has broken Jordanís record for most points by a rookie in their first 2 playoff games. This Jazz team wins 20 games without him.

Quote:
Ewing's Knicks never won anything. Robinson's Spurs only won when they added TD. So we had Dwight's Magic and KG's Celtics. We now have AD's Pelicans, KAT's TWolves, Embiid's 76ers, Horford's Celtics, and Gobert's Jazz.
Listen to yourself here. Just read what you type and swallow your pride about continuing because you donít want to be wrong.

The NBA is a post playerís league because:

ADís Pelicans
KATís Wolves
Embiidís Sixers (somehow you totally forget Mr Simmons whoís being compared to Magic)
Horfordís Celtics (What the hell)
Gobertís Jazz (what the hell)

I think Iím going to bow out of this discussion because itís got to the point of being silly. Itís obvious that you just donít want to admit youíre wrong.
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Old 04-19-2018, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Atlanta area
163 posts, read 96,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post

Numerous examples exist: Corey Maggette & Andre Iguodala--both had the size athleticism you identify as ideal for a basketball player. Neither was on the level of GOAT. Andre is a great basketball player. Maggette was a fringe starter.

Maggette (at least offensively) was even better than Iguodala, yet you seem to infer the opposite...like Maggette was a scrub.
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Old 04-19-2018, 01:20 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,880,628 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
We are talking great athletes - we are talking the greatest athletes to ever exist in the game of basketball. That translate VERY well to any era and probably multiple sports.

Well that settles it - the game of basketball hasnít changed in 17 years. Meanwhile, Iím watching the Rockets casually throw up 51 3pt attempts in a single game.
It is ludicrous to think that athleticism made MJ or LBJ. There are a bunch of great athletes in the NBA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Again, I will refer you statistics: https://bballbreakdown.com/2016/12/1...nt-revolution/

From 2010 to 2017 (just 7 seasons) - 3 point attempts increased by 44%. And guess what they increased yet again in 2018. Thatís not a slight change - itís a revolution.
Yes, there are more 3s shot in the NBA. As I mentioned, allowing zone defense requires changes to strategy. Instead of gimmick 90s offense, teams need to move the ball--stars need to be multi-talented and high IQ. Defenses are better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Dirk, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq - which doesnít belong?
Dirk, Hakeem, and Shaq are each sui generis. Robinson & Ewing are more comparable to each other than any of the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
The Pelicans have won nothing. They are a 6 seed that has won 2 games against a team that was never challenging for a championship. You are using the Pelicans as an example that the NBA is a league dominated by traditional big men in the post? Thatís silly. And letís not forget - AD attempted 162 3s this season...the most in his career. As I said, the league is dominated by perimeter players and even centers are moving their game to the perimeter.
AD is not a perimeter player. If you think AD is a perimeter player, then I must infer that you have not watched him play.

As I told you before, ISO post offense is not a good option in a zone defense era. Defenses are too good to ISO because it is never 1v1. Why would you expect the gimmick back to the basket low post offense of the 90s?

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
LOL, no. Having the best player in the world at the time was more important.
Kobe wasn't the best player in the world. The Lakers needed to answer the Dwight-centered offense of the Magic, and it was their 3 main post defenders who did so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
The Celtics arenít doing anything without Kyrie.
The Celtics are nothing without Horford. We are seeing right now what they are without Kyrie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
A team thatís doing nothing without their best player and former finals MVP.
Yes, the Spurs are not nearly as good without Kawhi Leonard. But they made the playoffs centered on Aldridge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Clint Capela - the guy who was deemed more valuable than former MVP candidate Dwight Howard? Regardless, the Rockets are led by perimeter players as I mentioned.
Clint Capela is critical to Houston. He is a great big.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
And are you insane? Donovan Mitchell is averaging 28/8/3/2 yet the Jazz are led by Gobert? Just heard that he has broken Jordanís record for most points by a rookie in their first 2 playoff games. This Jazz team wins 20 games without him.
Yes, the Jazz are led by Gobert. The Thunder are shooting .440, and just .468 in the paint. That's because Gobert controls the paint on defense. Last year's media MVP--a player whose greatest strength is his rim attack--is shooting just .386 thus far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Listen to yourself here. Just read what you type and swallow your pride about continuing because you donít want to be wrong.
I welcome something beyond a straw man, which is all you have managed. I'm telling you there are great bigs in the NBA today--that teams are built around them and that they produce wins. You seem to think that gimmick low post ISO is the only offense that makes a "true" big. That is wrong.

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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
The NBA is a post playerís league because:

ADís Pelicans
KATís Wolves
Embiidís Sixers (somehow you totally forget Mr Simmons whoís being compared to Magic)
Horfordís Celtics (What the hell)
Gobertís Jazz (what the hell)
The NBA is--as it always has been--a great player's league. Right now, the greats are a couple of multi-talented bigs, a couple of multi-talented guards, and a multi-talented 4/5.

Embiid is more important than Simmons for the 76ers. Simmons has a long way to go before he merits comparison to Magic.

Great players play great basketball and win games. Great bigs are still winning games today. That is my point. You attempt to tell me that I think it's a post player's league. That is a straw man. I think great bigs are still winners. They can still dominate. Teams can still build around them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
I think Iím going to bow out of this discussion because itís got to the point of being silly. Itís obvious that you just donít want to admit youíre wrong.
If you consider my arguments, then perhaps you will realize that the gimmicky 90s were an aberration and that great players win basketball games.

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Originally Posted by srschirm View Post
Maggette (at least offensively) was even better than Iguodala, yet you seem to infer the opposite...like Maggette was a scrub.
Maggette was a better scorer than Iguodala, but Iguodala has always been a better player on both ends of the ball.
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Old 04-19-2018, 02:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
It is ludicrous to think that athleticism made MJ or LBJ. There are a bunch of great athletes in the NBA.
The first person to ever argue that Lebron and Jordan weren’t great largely because they are arguably the best athletes to ever play. Most players need time to develop skill at the pro level, but Lebron and MJ were just dynamite out of the gate.



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Yes, there are more 3s shot in the NBA. As I mentioned, allowing zone defense requires changes to strategy. Instead of gimmick 90s offense, teams need to move the ball--stars need to be multi-talented and high IQ. Defenses are better.
The why is irrelevant. The game is different and more suited to perimeter players being dominant. Bottom line. Big men are adapting to a game dominated by much more offensively aggressive perimeter players. Even the last of the old school centers (Lopez and Gasol) are now chucking 3s.



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Dirk, Hakeem, and Shaq are each sui generis. Robinson & Ewing are more comparable to each other than any of the others.
Not if we look at hot areas of the court where each player scores. Dirk could handle the ball, shoot 3s and fade away jumpers. Dirk was revolutionary due to the matchup problems he created...pretty much the prototype for big men of the next era. The only problem is not many bigs have his skill set



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AD is not a perimeter player. If you think AD is a perimeter player, then I must infer that you have not watched him play.
Who said perimeter player? I said the best big in today’s league shoots more 3s in a season than basically every good big in other eras did combined in their entire careers. It’s a league dominated by perimeter players and even the bigs are moving their games out to the perimeter more.

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As I told you before, ISO post offense is not a good option in a zone defense era. Defenses are too good to ISO because it is never 1v1. Why would you expect the gimmick back to the basket low post offense of the 90s?
So you’re saying the game has changed? My entire argument.

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Kobe wasn't the best player in the world. The Lakers needed to answer the Dwight-centered offense of the Magic, and it was their 3 main post defenders who did so.
Kobe was the best player in the world. At worst top 2-3 (2nd in MVP voting in 2009 and 3rd in 2010). The Lakers win nothing without him.

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The Celtics are nothing without Horford. We are seeing right now what they are without Kyrie.
The Celtics are nothing. Winning 2 games against the 7th seed Bucks doesn’t make them a title contender. Throw in perimeter players like Kyrie and Hayward and we’re talking legit contender.

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Yes, the Spurs are not nearly as good without Kawhi Leonard. But they made the playoffs centered on Aldridge.
So now the standard for being “led” by a big man is not being a title contender but simply making the playoffs and getting swept? The Spurs are just another team led by a perimeter player.

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Clint Capela is critical to Houston. He is a great big.
And Steven Adams is crucial to the Thunder. That doesn’t mean the team is in any way led by a post dominant big man or built around Adams. You’re on crack if you think Capella is the equivalent of Hakeem leading the Rockets.


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Yes, the Jazz are led by Gobert. The Thunder are shooting .440, and just .468 in the paint. That's because Gobert controls the paint on defense. Last year's media MVP--a player whose greatest strength is his rim attack--is shooting just .386 thus far.
The Jazz win 20 games if not for Donovan being a legit superstar. No offense.



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I welcome something beyond a straw man, which is all you have managed. I'm telling you there are great bigs in the NBA today--that teams are built around them and that they produce wins. You seem to think that gimmick low post ISO is the only offense that makes a "true" big. That is wrong.
Good bigs existing in the league and being important players does not mean it’s a league led by bigs.

Kawahi, Lebron, Paul, Harden, Westbrook, Curry, Lillard, Durant, Giannis, Kyrie, Derozan, George, Simmons, Wall, etc - all perimeter players. Hell, look at the 2017 MVP voting. There’s one big in the top-11 and that’s AD tied for 9th.

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The NBA is--as it always has been--a great player's league. Right now, the greats are a couple of multi-talented bigs, a couple of multi-talented guards, and a multi-talented 4/5.
Spurs - Kawhi
Thunder - Westbrook
Rockets - Harden
Blazers - Lillard
Warriors - Curry
Cavs - Lebron
Bucks - Giannis
Wizards - Wall
Raptors - Derozan
Celtics - Kyrie
Sixers - Simmons
Pacers - Oladipo

It’s a perimeter player league. 2017 MVP voting has ONE big in the top 11. 10 of the last 12 rookies of the year have been perimeter players.



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Embiid is more important than Simmons for the 76ers. Simmons has a long way to go before he merits comparison to Magic.
So the Sixers are like 8-1 without Embiid and Simmons is averaging nearly a triple double yet Embiid is the more important player?

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Great players play great basketball and win games. Great bigs are still winning games today. That is my point. You attempt to tell me that I think it's a post player's league. That is a straw man. I think great bigs are still winners. They can still dominate. Teams can still build around them.
The best teams are led by perimeter players. Perhaps in 10 years we can revisit your opinions.



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If you consider my arguments, then perhaps you will realize that the gimmicky 90s were an aberration and that great players win basketball games.
Andthe overwhelming majority of great players in today’s league are perimeter players. NBA teams are annilhalating 3 pt records every year. This is THE era for perimeter players (or bigs with perimeter player skills) to fully display their talents.
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