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Old 05-11-2018, 09:40 AM
 
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I think the only argument against Russell is that he played a long time ago and he was on a great team. But what if a great (like top 3) player really did play 60 years ago? How would we know? It seems like some folks are far to quick to say it’s impossible because a certain player played so long ago.

If winning is your criteria than he’s obviously #1.
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Old 05-11-2018, 10:03 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Back to NE View Post
Please, there was a small fraction of talent back when Russell played compared to recent decades. Russell was offensively challenged and you're talking GOAT? I doubt he was any better then Ben Wallace. You're just stuck in nostalgia land.

Olajuwon and Shaq to name just 2 would have used him like a rental car.
But Shaq and Hakeem probably get their points against anyone in history. Shaq probably throws Kareem around like a rag doll, but Iím not sure Iíd say heís better.

For many Russell is like GOAT defender, GOAT rebounder, GOAT leadership and GOAT winner. All that has to count for something.

Russell often gets knocked for not translating well to other eras, but I wonder...would he be an even BETTER version of a 6í9-6í10 center like Clint Capela if on the right team? Imagine Capela with even better defense, better stamina, better rebounding, leadership, etc. We might be talking averages of say 18/16 while regularly winning DPOY. Also sounds kinda like peak Dwight Howard but not as soft and a MUCH better teammate/leader.
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Old 05-11-2018, 03:14 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
But Shaq and Hakeem probably get their points against anyone in history. Shaq probably throws Kareem around like a rag doll, but Iím not sure Iíd say heís better.

For many Russell is like GOAT defender, GOAT rebounder, GOAT leadership and GOAT winner. All that has to count for something.

Russell often gets knocked for not translating well to other eras, but I wonder...would he be an even BETTER version of a 6í9-6í10 center like Clint Capela if on the right team? Imagine Capela with even better defense, better stamina, better rebounding, leadership, etc. We might be talking averages of say 18/16 while regularly winning DPOY. Also sounds kinda like peak Dwight Howard but not as soft and a MUCH better teammate/leader.
Such a leap of faith on Russell being all those GOATs. GOAT on winning only but he was on a stacked team in a weak era.

Many NBA'ers of Russell's era smoked cigarettes and ate garbage. The total number of excellent basketball players was maybe 50, now there are thousands. The game was played at a simplistic level too, far less sophisticated and varied as today.

If you want to continue grading on a curve, be my guest. I won't, no way is a 1966 Frigidaire better than a 2018.
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Old 05-11-2018, 03:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Back to NE View Post
Such a leap of faith on Russell being all those GOATs. GOAT on winning only but he was on a stacked team in a weak era.

Many NBA'ers of Russell's era smoked cigarettes and ate garbage. The total number of excellent basketball players was maybe 50, now there are thousands. The game was played at a simplistic level too, far less sophisticated and varied as today.

If you want to continue grading on a curve, be my guest. I won't, no way is a 1966 Frigidaire better than a 2018.
Good points. Another thing to consider here is what the players made in the 1950's. Wilt Chamberlain finally hit the $100,000 mark after a few years in the league but most journeyman NBAers were around the 10 to 15,000 dollar range. Their team facilities were no doubt as cheap as the money the players were making. But on the other hand, going to an NBA regular season game between parking, the game ticket, hot dog and a beer, well that might set you back $15, maybe $10.

And also consider where we were at regarding the medical community. I remember the cost of my first knee surgery in 1971 was done by Dr. John Leidholdt of the Denver Broncos. Was in the hospital for three days. The total cost, before I turned in the bill to my employers health insurance, was just over $2100.

Like the other pro sports, only a handful of players didn't have to work off season jobs to make ends meet.

JMHO!
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Old 05-11-2018, 03:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Back to NE View Post
Such a leap of faith on Russell being all those GOATs. GOAT on winning only but he was on a stacked team in a weak era.

Many NBA'ers of Russell's era smoked cigarettes and ate garbage. The total number of excellent basketball players was maybe 50, now there are thousands. The game was played at a simplistic level too, far less sophisticated and varied as today.

If you want to continue grading on a curve, be my guest. I won't, no way is a 1966 Frigidaire better than a 2018.
Technology definitely improves in 50 years but humans donít change. How can we automatically write off anyone that played ďlong agoĒ simply because they played long ago. What if the most genetically gifted (mentally and physically) athlete did in fact exist in say 1960? What if Lebron James of 2018 was transported to the 60s and averaged 50 ppg...would we just roll our eyes and say he played against weak competition and probably wasnít that good?

Perhaps there werenít as many excellent players in Russellís era, but there were also only 8 teams.

Now hereís a crazy stat - over Bill Russellís career he played in 21 ďwinner takes allĒ games ó his record in those is an astonishing 21-0. 11 NBA titles, 2 NCAA titles and 1 gold medal. He has 12 NBA titles if not for an injury in the 1958 playoffs.
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Old 05-11-2018, 04:10 PM
 
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In some ways I think Russell’s and MJ’s domination sorta hurts them in some people’s eyes. How can players reach such a level of utter domination without some sort of funny business going on? Russell won 11 and MJ probably wins 8 or 9 if he doesn’t retire the first two times. What do we often hear about MJ? Competition of the 90s sucked...not as many good players, etc - that’s why he won so much.
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Old 05-11-2018, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
In some ways I think Russell’s and MJ’s domination sorta hurts them in some people’s eyes. How can players reach such a level of utter domination without some sort of funny business going on? Russell won 11 and MJ probably wins 8 or 9 if he doesn’t retire the first two times. What do we often hear about MJ? Competition of the 90s sucked...not as many good players, etc - that’s why he won so much.
Funny, because isn't this what you guys use to discredit Lebron's domination? Weak conference, soft era, etc etc. Hahahaha....straw house blow down!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOUBLE H View Post
Good points. Another thing to consider here is what the players made in the 1950's. Wilt Chamberlain finally hit the $100,000 mark after a few years in the league but most journeyman NBAers were around the 10 to 15,000 dollar range. Their team facilities were no doubt as cheap as the money the players were making. But on the other hand, going to an NBA regular season game between parking, the game ticket, hot dog and a beer, well that might set you back $15, maybe $10.

And also consider where we were at regarding the medical community. I remember the cost of my first knee surgery in 1971 was done by Dr. John Leidholdt of the Denver Broncos. Was in the hospital for three days. The total cost, before I turned in the bill to my employers health insurance, was just over $2100.

Like the other pro sports, only a handful of players didn't have to work off season jobs to make ends meet.

JMHO!
I always enjoy your sports knowledge as someone from an older era who has seen almost all the greats play. In your opinion, who are the most exciting basketball players you saw play, and who would you say are your Top 4 ever? And how would you compare Lebron's accomplishments in the 00s/10s, to what you saw of great basketball players from the 60s thru 90s?

I always enjoy your opinions, literally like 50-60 years of watching the game, much respect!
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Old 05-11-2018, 06:44 PM
 
11,679 posts, read 7,045,201 times
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Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
Funny, because isn't this what you guys use to discredit Lebron's domination? Weak conference, soft era, etc etc. Hahahaha....straw house blow down!



I always enjoy your sports knowledge as someone from an older era who has seen almost all the greats play. In your opinion, who are the most exciting basketball players you saw play, and who would you say are your Top 4 ever? And how would you compare Lebron's accomplishments in the 00s/10s, to what you saw of great basketball players from the 60s thru 90s?

I always enjoy your opinions, literally like 50-60 years of watching the game, much respect!
Lebron has 3 championships (spaced out over 5 seasons and a 15 yr career)...same as Bird. Thatís a far cry from the strangle hold Russell and Jordan had on NBA titles. If the Warriors stay together, Curry is probably next in line to have a shot at putting rings on more than one hand.
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Old 05-11-2018, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
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Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Lebron has 3 championships (spaced out over 5 seasons and a 15 yr career)...same as Bird. Thatís a far cry from the strangle hold Russell and Jordan had on NBA titles. If the Warriors stay together, Curry is probably next in line to have a shot at putting rings on more than one hand.
But Lebron has been every bit as dominant as both Russell and Jordan, and arguably more so. He hasn't had the team success to rival their championships....

Curry is having team success at a high level, but his peak of dominance isn't gonna touch any of these guys. As it stands, he had about two years where he was a dominant force of All-Time standards. The shortness of his peak will be an asterisk against him...he is still obviously elite, but this season will count as an interruption to his peak because of the injuries, and last season because of the addition of KD, who absolutely took over The Finals...

I like how you bend and mold arguments for your benefit. Absolutely nobody except the most Jordan-crazed anti-Lebron's would say Lebron isn't on the level of domination with Russell, Mike, or anybody. Your tendency to conflate team success with individual dominance is your signature to bash Lebron...

On a side note, as "dynasties" do in the modern NBA (and I'll only officially consider the Dubs a dynasty if they close it out this year), the Warriors run is all but over. I do believe they'll remain relevant for a while, but the balance of power is about to shift back to The East. The young teams with the youngsters with the brightest futures are in The East. Golden State's top two players will be 30 at Tip-Off in October, and both of those players have given cause for concern about their durability and longevity. I don't know where you see this "rings on more than one hand" coming from with the Warriors....

The Warriors will be a major headline in 2010s NBA lore, but this decade will officially go down as the Decade of Lebron. Everyone and everything else will be secondary. You don't have to like it, but it doesn't make it any less true...
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Old 05-11-2018, 08:55 PM
 
51,912 posts, read 41,783,059 times
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Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
OK, you've got me on that one.


But in my favor, as the book points out, the Celtics didn't win a title until Russell arrived in 1956. They won the title his rookie year. And the year he was gone was the year they stopped winning titles.


Jordan did not win a title until his 7th year (granted the Bulls were horrible when they got him). Lebron won his first title his 10th year in the league (2012) and has 2 more since that.
As I've mentioned many times, it's nearly impossible to compare legendary talents, let alone across completely different eras.

The NBA finals MVP award is named the "Bill Russell Award" so I think we can say that we all highly respect the guy and that he's one of the top greats but let's not throw Cousy and Sharman under the bus for being 1st team all-nba for the first 4 years Russell played on that team.

Also consider that Russell had to put up with almost Jackie Robinson levels of racism.

Russell was awesome, his teams were stacked. Oh well. He's one heckuva player and I can't change the past but I'm ashamed at how he was treated.

Goes to show how far things have come where parents would Poo their pants to find out Lebron was moving into their gated community or that their kid was invited to play date at Lebrons house etc.
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