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Old 05-14-2018, 03:34 PM
 
51,893 posts, read 41,774,553 times
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Wilt had a clear edge on Russell throughout their careers, but didn't happen to have 2 all-nba players to back him up like Russell had almost every year.

Chamberlain's Dominance Over Russell: A Head-to-Head Statistical Analysis - NBA Stats Lab

Some of the comparative numbers there are pretty brutal.

the playoff comparison where wilt was +11 points, +3.5 rebs, -0.8 asst and had a 6% higher FG is pretty brutal.

It wasn't like Russell was containing him either, Wilt shot a career 51% from the field against him in the playoffs.

Not dogging on Russell here, great player, great man.

Just pointing out how imo overblown championships are given it's a team game.
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Old 05-14-2018, 07:38 PM
 
16,522 posts, read 20,966,979 times
Reputation: 47952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
As I've mentioned many times, it's nearly impossible to compare legendary talents, let alone across completely different eras.

The NBA finals MVP award is named the "Bill Russell Award" so I think we can say that we all highly respect the guy and that he's one of the top greats but let's not throw Cousy and Sharman under the bus for being 1st team all-nba for the first 4 years Russell played on that team.

Also consider that Russell had to put up with almost Jackie Robinson levels of racism.

Russell was awesome, his teams were stacked. Oh well. He's one heckuva player and I can't change the past but I'm ashamed at how he was treated.

.
Russell had tremendous respect for Robinson, among the pallbearers at Jackie Robinson's funeral was Willie Mays, Joe Louis, Pee Wee Reese, Ralph Branca, Willie Stargell---and Bill Russell.

And the stuff that was thrown at Russell was more than just taunts, racial slurs, and beer poured on his head as he was coming out of the visitors locker room at halftime. It was worse than that--much worse.

A factual bio is available on youtube. Type in "Bill Russell documentary-the player, the coach.' This 45 minute bio is one of several dozen bios on the Emmy award winning ESPN Sports Century Series. Give that article 45 minutes of your time. I'll give you a few reasons why.

1.) It talks about Russell's youth, growing up in the 1930's in the ultimate Jim Crow part of the country--West Monroe, Louisiana. He no doubt was MF'ed on a daily basis by the white kids, his dad certainly was. The 45 minute bio speaks of a time where Russell's dad got the family in the house when a white mob came storming in their neighborhood and told the family that "we're standing our ground."

2.) It talks about the endless insults Russell received from the fans. Russell was not the first black B-ball player but came to be known as the first Black B-ball superstar.

3.) When Russell eventually moved to the Boston area he picked the suburban city of Reading. How many blacks lived there in 1959? Most likely zero. Russell showed confidence on the court and off the court. He showed his black teammates that a Black man COULD live in Reading. In the interview his daughter remarked that at different times when he was away on a road trip people would break into his house, scribble ethnic slurs on the walls, bust up his NBA trophies--and defecated in his bedroom.

There is a lot more worth noting in the bio from a variety of former NBA players from that era; Al Attles, Elvin Hayes, Bob Pettit, and his teammates John Havlicek, Don Nelson, Bob Cousy, K.C. Jones, Tom "Satch" Sanders, Tom Heinson---and Red Auerbach.

Several books are available on Russell, the ones I have are "Bill Russell-A Biography", and "Russell Rules-11 Lessons On Leadership from The 20th Century's Greatest Winner."

Tommy Heinson ends the "Sports Century"bio just right-"This is a great man. The people here didn't appreciate him, they didn't understand him."

Long before Michael Jordon, Stephan Curry, LeBron James, and the other greats from this century came along, about four decades ago I put Bill Russell in my personal HOF, as a basketball player but more importantly a man. He still is in there.
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:18 PM
 
7,906 posts, read 4,868,890 times
Reputation: 4101
Only one player in the history of the NBA averaged a triple double for an entire season. And many consider him the GOAT. In fact, he actually averaged a triple double over five seasons.

Here's who Wayne Embry, Bill Russell, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar believe was the GOAT, and it isn't Jordan or James:

Any greatest of all time discussion in the NBA must include Oscar Robertson | cleveland.com

Imagine averaging 30.8 points per game for an entire season, with NO three-point shot.

Here's a less flattering take on the Big O.

The Legacy of Oscar Robertson ę
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Old 05-14-2018, 10:31 PM
 
51,893 posts, read 41,774,553 times
Reputation: 32371
Quote:
Originally Posted by DOUBLE H View Post
Russell had tremendous respect for Robinson, among the pallbearers at Jackie Robinson's funeral was Willie Mays, Joe Louis, Pee Wee Reese, Ralph Branca, Willie Stargell---and Bill Russell.

And the stuff that was thrown at Russell was more than just taunts, racial slurs, and beer poured on his head as he was coming out of the visitors locker room at halftime. It was worse than that--much worse.

A factual bio is available on youtube. Type in "Bill Russell documentary-the player, the coach.' This 45 minute bio is one of several dozen bios on the Emmy award winning ESPN Sports Century Series. Give that article 45 minutes of your time. I'll give you a few reasons why.

1.) It talks about Russell's youth, growing up in the 1930's in the ultimate Jim Crow part of the country--West Monroe, Louisiana. He no doubt was MF'ed on a daily basis by the white kids, his dad certainly was. The 45 minute bio speaks of a time where Russell's dad got the family in the house when a white mob came storming in their neighborhood and told the family that "we're standing our ground."

2.) It talks about the endless insults Russell received from the fans. Russell was not the first black B-ball player but came to be known as the first Black B-ball superstar.

3.) When Russell eventually moved to the Boston area he picked the suburban city of Reading. How many blacks lived there in 1959? Most likely zero. Russell showed confidence on the court and off the court. He showed his black teammates that a Black man COULD live in Reading. In the interview his daughter remarked that at different times when he was away on a road trip people would break into his house, scribble ethnic slurs on the walls, bust up his NBA trophies--and defecated in his bedroom.

There is a lot more worth noting in the bio from a variety of former NBA players from that era; Al Attles, Elvin Hayes, Bob Pettit, and his teammates John Havlicek, Don Nelson, Bob Cousy, K.C. Jones, Tom "Satch" Sanders, Tom Heinson---and Red Auerbach.

Several books are available on Russell, the ones I have are "Bill Russell-A Biography", and "Russell Rules-11 Lessons On Leadership from The 20th Century's Greatest Winner."

Tommy Heinson ends the "Sports Century"bio just right-"This is a great man. The people here didn't appreciate him, they didn't understand him."

Long before Michael Jordon, Stephan Curry, LeBron James, and the other greats from this century came along, about four decades ago I put Bill Russell in my personal HOF, as a basketball player but more importantly a man. He still is in there.
Amazing post. Brilliantly written.

Probably the most notable and heartwarming thing is to reflect upon the treatment of Russell vs. the later treatment of Jordan and Lebron etc. Holy crap, imagine learning that MJ is moving next door to you? Thankfully the human race is progressing.

My kids generation doesn't even look at race and moreso more and more Americans are 1/8 everything.
So at least in that regard our kids are less stupid than our elders.
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Old 05-15-2018, 12:35 AM
 
Location: Western Asia
3,187 posts, read 1,441,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
Lolololol....

Lebron lacks the killer instinct is still the great myth in basketball...
Well, there's killer instinct which Lebron has and then there's I'd rather die than lose that Jordan had. The difference is that last play of the game, Lebron will either take the shot if he's open or pass to the open man.....Jordan is going to take it and make it...hence 6-0 Championships for Jordan and 3-5 for Lebron.
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Old 05-15-2018, 12:37 AM
 
Location: Western Asia
3,187 posts, read 1,441,951 times
Reputation: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
Wilt had a clear edge on Russell throughout their careers, but didn't happen to have 2 all-nba players to back him up like Russell had almost every year.

Chamberlain's Dominance Over Russell: A Head-to-Head Statistical Analysis - NBA Stats Lab

Some of the comparative numbers there are pretty brutal.

the playoff comparison where wilt was +11 points, +3.5 rebs, -0.8 asst and had a 6% higher FG is pretty brutal.

It wasn't like Russell was containing him either, Wilt shot a career 51% from the field against him in the playoffs.

Not dogging on Russell here, great player, great man.

Just pointing out how imo overblown championships are given it's a team game.
I'm old enough to have watched them play....sorry, Chamberlain was just a better player. Russell did have that will to win like Jordan had. Chamberlain wanted to be dominant, spectacular and entertaining (more like Charles Barkley).

Last edited by American Expat; 05-15-2018 at 12:45 AM..
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Old 05-15-2018, 07:29 AM
 
7,700 posts, read 4,557,747 times
Reputation: 8398
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
Only one player in the history of the NBA averaged a triple double for an entire season. And many consider him the GOAT. In fact, he actually averaged a triple double over five seasons.

Here's who Wayne Embry, Bill Russell, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar believe was the GOAT, and it isn't Jordan or James:

Any greatest of all time discussion in the NBA must include Oscar Robertson | cleveland.com

Imagine averaging 30.8 points per game for an entire season, with NO three-point shot.

Here's a less flattering take on the Big O.

The Legacy of Oscar Robertson ę
LOL. Another guy just did it...two seasons in a row, and most people don't consider him a top-3 current player.
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Old 05-15-2018, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas, NV
352 posts, read 248,973 times
Reputation: 815
Titles do not make one great.
Case in point:
#Titles for James Michael McAdoo: 2
#Titles for John Stockton and Karl Malone: 0

Who is better? McAdoo or the combination of Malone and Stockton?

Measuring players in a team sport based on their titles is foolish...hence my controversial opinions on Michael Jordan (great, obviously, but his titles make people deify him and ignore his supporting casts) and Joe Montana (I think Steve Young was better than Joe, but Joe won more titles so gets far more love)...because there are so many other factors involved in a team winning a title. Is Will Purdue a better center than Hakeem or Shaq? Cause he has more titles than both of them...
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Old 05-15-2018, 05:31 PM
 
11,679 posts, read 7,043,561 times
Reputation: 6387
Quote:
Originally Posted by HedgeYourInvestments View Post
Titles do not make one great.
Case in point:
#Titles for James Michael McAdoo: 2
#Titles for John Stockton and Karl Malone: 0

Who is better? McAdoo or the combination of Malone and Stockton?

Measuring players in a team sport based on their titles is foolish...hence my controversial opinions on Michael Jordan (great, obviously, but his titles make people deify him and ignore his supporting casts) and Joe Montana (I think Steve Young was better than Joe, but Joe won more titles so gets far more love)...because there are so many other factors involved in a team winning a title. Is Will Purdue a better center than Hakeem or Shaq? Cause he has more titles than both of them...
Not having titles greatly impacts the view of players like Malone, Stockton and Barkley. Itís foolish to argue otherwise. Imagine if Barkley takes out MJ in 1993 - he instantly passes up any superstar without a title...possibly becoming a fringe top 10 player.

Remember...we are comparing superstars here so keep it apples to apples. Robert Horry vs Larry Bird is obviously apples to oranges so comparing ring counts isnít even entertained.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas, NV
352 posts, read 248,973 times
Reputation: 815
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Not having titles greatly impacts the view of players like Malone, Stockton and Barkley. Itís foolish to argue otherwise. Imagine if Barkley takes out MJ in 1993 - he instantly passes up any superstar without a title...possibly becoming a fringe top 10 player.

Remember...we are comparing superstars here so keep it apples to apples. Robert Horry vs Larry Bird is obviously apples to oranges so comparing ring counts isnít even entertained.
But WHY? Why does a title magically catapult someone to the top?

Would you consider Ted Williams, Barry Bonds and Ty Cobb to be inferior players to Arndt Jorgens and Hank Bauer? Cause the former won a combined 0 World Series while Jorgens won 5 and Bauer won 7.

Again I point to my example of James Michael McAdoo and Karl Malone. I would NOT consider McAdoo better simply because he has 2 titles.

IT IS A TEAM SPORT. You can't judge an individual on the performance of his team beyond regular season success. Winning titles is about depth. No single dominant player has ever single-handedly won his team a title. In any of the 4 major sports. It doesn't work that way. Jordan had two of the top 20 players by his side in all 6 titles. Plus, he always had one of the league's best shooters and other strong pieces on the bench providing depth.

So many factors play into titles...level of competition, team depth, injury status, coaching, etc. So it's incredibly foolish and simplistic to consider them any more than a minor piece of measuring greatness. I HATE LEBRON JAMES WITH A PASSION. He's my 2nd least favorite player in the league behind James Harden. I am a life-long die-hard Warriors fan (been a fan since the Run TMC days), but Lebron's ability to place the team on his back and win solo is far better than Jordan. Plus, he is far more well-rounded. Jordan was an amazing scorer and a strong defender, but he was only an okay passer and rebounder and his outside shot was weak. James beats him in nearly every category, statistically. Add in the size, strength and versatility of James (Jordan was a 2 and only a 2, James can play 1-4), and you have a lot of evidence to his superiority. The ONLY argument you have is "Jordan has more titles". But Jordan didn't have to face The Warriors in the finals every year. He didn't have to face the prime Spurs.
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