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Old 05-16-2018, 10:25 AM
 
Location: So California
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Its a combination of skill, statistics, longevity, titles and you can't discount the eye test.


Wilt > Russell


Jordan > Lebron


Easy.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:25 AM
 
11,680 posts, read 7,063,091 times
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Originally Posted by HedgeYourInvestments View Post
But WHY? Why does a title magically catapult someone to the top?

Would you consider Ted Williams, Barry Bonds and Ty Cobb to be inferior players to Arndt Jorgens and Hank Bauer? Cause the former won a combined 0 World Series while Jorgens won 5 and Bauer won 7.

Again I point to my example of James Michael McAdoo and Karl Malone. I would NOT consider McAdoo better simply because he has 2 titles.

IT IS A TEAM SPORT. You can't judge an individual on the performance of his team beyond regular season success. Winning titles is about depth. No single dominant player has ever single-handedly won his team a title. In any of the 4 major sports. It doesn't work that way. Jordan had two of the top 20 players by his side in all 6 titles. Plus, he always had one of the league's best shooters and other strong pieces on the bench providing depth.

So many factors play into titles...level of competition, team depth, injury status, coaching, etc. So it's incredibly foolish and simplistic to consider them any more than a minor piece of measuring greatness. I HATE LEBRON JAMES WITH A PASSION. He's my 2nd least favorite player in the league behind James Harden. I am a life-long die-hard Warriors fan (been a fan since the Run TMC days), but Lebron's ability to place the team on his back and win solo is far better than Jordan. Plus, he is far more well-rounded. Jordan was an amazing scorer and a strong defender, but he was only an okay passer and rebounder and his outside shot was weak. James beats him in nearly every category, statistically. Add in the size, strength and versatility of James (Jordan was a 2 and only a 2, James can play 1-4), and you have a lot of evidence to his superiority. The ONLY argument you have is "Jordan has more titles". But Jordan didn't have to face The Warriors in the finals every year. He didn't have to face the prime Spurs.
Show many basketball top 10 list that includes players without championships. Iíve yet to see the likes of Karl Malone or Charles Barkley included in any top 10 lists.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Washington State
18,640 posts, read 9,633,288 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slo1318 View Post
Its a combination of skill, statistics, longevity, titles and you can't discount the eye test.


Wilt > Russell


Jordan > Lebron


Easy.
Exactly, I compare the film, stats, etc. as you mentioned....for those discounting the title argument, it's not the only thing but it is part of the evaluation. Bill Russell is at best about 10th best player being generous but he's got the 11 rings so that elevates him beyond his stats.

Lebron is still below MJ because he's not an unstoppable force scoring nor is he able to shut down everyone he guards like Jordan could do.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:00 AM
 
Location: So California
8,556 posts, read 8,893,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall Traveler View Post
Exactly, I compare the film, stats, etc. as you mentioned....for those discounting the title argument, it's not the only thing but it is part of the evaluation. Bill Russell is at best about 10th best player being generous but he's got the 11 rings so that elevates him beyond his stats.

Lebron is still below MJ because he's not an unstoppable force scoring nor is he able to shut down everyone he guards like Jordan could do.


Agree. The titles especially for the marquee player shows they overcame doubt and the huge challenge to win that title.


Lebron is really hurt by his early career, where he said he couldn't beat Boston, bailed out of Cleveland for that reason, got lit up by the Mavericks, played second fiddle to Wade and even called out by Jason Terry and couldn't do anything about it.
Now I will say he's completely comfortable in his own skin now, meaning he will take game winners where he was notorious for passing off at the end or missing free throws.
Jordan never had any of those problems, he was always the man on the floor.
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Old 05-16-2018, 11:33 AM
 
7,744 posts, read 4,590,691 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall Traveler View Post
Exactly, I compare the film, stats, etc. as you mentioned....for those discounting the title argument, it's not the only thing but it is part of the evaluation. Bill Russell is at best about 10th best player being generous but he's got the 11 rings so that elevates him beyond his stats.

Lebron is still below MJ because he's not an unstoppable force scoring nor is he able to shut down everyone he guards like Jordan could do.
It’s revisionist history to say that Jordan locked everyone down, because Pippen typically guarded the other teams best perimeter scorer. Michael Jordan was a tremendous defender, but LeBron‘s defense is highly underrated he had an eight year stretch as arguably the best perimeter defender in the game, and what largely unrecognized. Jordan could guard 1-3, but speedier PG’s gave him fits. He was usually it has to do with guarding the lesser of the other team’s shooting guard or small forward. LeBron has similar problems with speedy guards, but unlike Jordan, he can guard the four.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:07 PM
 
11,680 posts, read 7,063,091 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
It’s revisionist history to say that Jordan locked everyone down, because Pippen typically guarded the other teams best perimeter scorer. Michael Jordan was a tremendous defender, but LeBron‘s defense is highly underrated he had an eight year stretch as arguably the best perimeter defender in the game, and what largely unrecognized. Jordan could guard 1-3, but speedier PG’s gave him fits. He was usually it has to do with guarding the lesser of the other team’s shooting guard or small forward. LeBron has similar problems with speedy guards, but unlike Jordan, he can guard the four.
1x DPOY (1 of only 5 guards)+ 9x all defensive 1st team. All you need to know about defense.

The resume has no flaws.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:49 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,879,512 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HedgeYourInvestments View Post
But WHY? Why does a title magically catapult someone to the top?

Would you consider Ted Williams, Barry Bonds and Ty Cobb to be inferior players to Arndt Jorgens and Hank Bauer? Cause the former won a combined 0 World Series while Jorgens won 5 and Bauer won 7.

Again I point to my example of James Michael McAdoo and Karl Malone. I would NOT consider McAdoo better simply because he has 2 titles.

IT IS A TEAM SPORT. You can't judge an individual on the performance of his team beyond regular season success. Winning titles is about depth. No single dominant player has ever single-handedly won his team a title. In any of the 4 major sports. It doesn't work that way. Jordan had two of the top 20 players by his side in all 6 titles. Plus, he always had one of the league's best shooters and other strong pieces on the bench providing depth.

So many factors play into titles...level of competition, team depth, injury status, coaching, etc. So it's incredibly foolish and simplistic to consider them any more than a minor piece of measuring greatness. I HATE LEBRON JAMES WITH A PASSION. He's my 2nd least favorite player in the league behind James Harden. I am a life-long die-hard Warriors fan (been a fan since the Run TMC days), but Lebron's ability to place the team on his back and win solo is far better than Jordan. Plus, he is far more well-rounded. Jordan was an amazing scorer and a strong defender, but he was only an okay passer and rebounder and his outside shot was weak. James beats him in nearly every category, statistically. Add in the size, strength and versatility of James (Jordan was a 2 and only a 2, James can play 1-4), and you have a lot of evidence to his superiority. The ONLY argument you have is "Jordan has more titles". But Jordan didn't have to face The Warriors in the finals every year. He didn't have to face the prime Spurs.
Jordan's team was The Warriors in the 90s. Statistics will tell you that Russell Westbrook--who has led his team to two successive 1st round exits--is one of the best players in the league. He is not. Basketball is a team sport, and the point of the sport is to win the games. The best players do that. A lot of greats are underrated because they produce wins even if they don't produce gaudy statistics--Chauncey Billups or Tim Duncan, for example.

There is a top 5 all-time. It is Jordan, LBJ, Russell, Magic, and Kareem. Each has an argument for GOAT. Each has a counter-argument.
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Old 05-16-2018, 05:05 PM
 
52,055 posts, read 41,872,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall Traveler View Post
Exactly, I compare the film, stats, etc. as you mentioned....for those discounting the title argument, it's not the only thing but it is part of the evaluation. Bill Russell is at best about 10th best player being generous but he's got the 11 rings so that elevates him beyond his stats.

Lebron is still below MJ because he's not an unstoppable force scoring nor is he able to shut down everyone he guards like Jordan could do.
The guy is absolutely murdering teams with 40point triple double nights and he's not an "unstoppable force"?

Come on.

P.S. I'm a big Jordan fan. Seen him play several times back in the day when I worked 2 miles or so from the stadium.

To me, the reason Jordan is so elevated is because this is sports entertainment and Jordan boosted the league just like Bird\Magic.

Jordan brought the NBA mainstream and global. That is definitely a facet that he is the CLEAR GOAT at.

The solely on-court GOAT argument is an impossible one because how can you determine it without putting together a weighted criteria....which of course no one agrees upon. lol.

it's like asking what the best car is. Pretty stupid question without qualifying criteria isn't it?
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Old 05-16-2018, 05:09 PM
 
52,055 posts, read 41,872,746 times
Reputation: 32469
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Jordan's team was The Warriors in the 90s. Statistics will tell you that Russell Westbrook--who has led his team to two successive 1st round exits--is one of the best players in the league. He is not. Basketball is a team sport, and the point of the sport is to win the games. The best players do that. A lot of greats are underrated because they produce wins even if they don't produce gaudy statistics--Chauncey Billups or Tim Duncan, for example.

There is a top 5 all-time. It is Jordan, LBJ, Russell, Magic, and Kareem. Each has an argument for GOAT. Each has a counter-argument.
Duncan's statistics were gaudy when you reflect pace of play and efficiency.

Let's not confuse the sh*tty use of statistics by someone with no training in it with solidly analyzing players for numerous variables. People abuse stats all the time and sports and politics are the two worst places.
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Old 05-16-2018, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Washington State
18,640 posts, read 9,633,288 times
Reputation: 15873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
The guy is absolutely murdering teams with 40point triple double nights and he's not an "unstoppable force"?

Come on.

P.S. I'm a big Jordan fan. Seen him play several times back in the day when I worked 2 miles or so from the stadium.

To me, the reason Jordan is so elevated is because this is sports entertainment and Jordan boosted the league just like Bird\Magic.

Jordan brought the NBA mainstream and global. That is definitely a facet that he is the CLEAR GOAT at.

The solely on-court GOAT argument is an impossible one because how can you determine it without putting together a weighted criteria....which of course no one agrees upon. lol.

it's like asking what the best car is. Pretty stupid question without qualifying criteria isn't it?
Going on what I witnessed with my eyes. Jordan averaged 3 more points in the regular season and 4.5 points per game higher in the playoffs over their careers (Lebron to date) but this also includes the waning years that lowered Jordan's averages. Jordan averaged 9 PPG more than Lebron in their respective highest scoring playoff year....that's the unstoppable offensive force difference.

I've already acknowledged Lebron is a better passer and rebounder but Jordan was clearly a better defender....I've seen Lebron struggle against a quicker guard that can shoot....never saw Jordan struggle defending anyone....I agree Lebron does give you the option of putting him on a big.

My conclusion again is that Lebron's passing and rebounding advantage negates Jordan's scoring and better defense but why I say Jordan is still better is the intensity and competitiveness to win in Jordan was higher than Lebron.

Last edited by Tall Traveler; 05-16-2018 at 05:54 PM..
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