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Old 05-21-2018, 10:30 PM
 
51,993 posts, read 41,825,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben young View Post
Same as he did in the Olympics' and collage............WIN
Um, everyone on Team USA won in that era.

As for college? All the top players were college beasts.

I guess that makes Bill Walton better than Bill Russell.....frankly, that's probably true when viewing a peak perspective as opposed to longevity.
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Old 05-21-2018, 10:38 PM
 
51,993 posts, read 41,825,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
Remember too that Duncan was #2 in 'defensive win shares.' Bill Russell was #1, and by a wide margin.
https://www.basketball-reference.com...ws_career.html
So um, explain to me the formula for defensive win shares because dear lordly lord....Russell is out in front by 30pts and the first thought in my head is that this is the era where games were 140-135.

As opposed to 92-83 like in some parts of the NBA.

I mean come on man, this is NBA Stats 101, changes over a 60+ year period render some comparisons completely impossible.

So in response, provide the DWS calculation and let's discuss.
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:02 AM
 
7,719 posts, read 4,575,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
So um, explain to me the formula for defensive win shares because dear lordly lord....Russell is out in front by 30pts and the first thought in my head is that this is the era where games were 140-135.

As opposed to 92-83 like in some parts of the NBA.

I mean come on man, this is NBA Stats 101, changes over a 60+ year period render some comparisons completely impossible.

So in response, provide the DWS calculation and let's discuss.
Defensive win shares isn’t really useful when comparing Russell to players from different eras, because a lot of most basic defensive stats (steals, blocks and defensive boards) weren’t recorded when Russell played. It’s also a compiling stats, so it rewards longevity. This post explains the different calculus used for players from different eras.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html
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Old 05-22-2018, 09:35 AM
 
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The question is...if you throw out Russell because he played in the 60s, do you also throw out Jerry West, Oscar, Wilt, etc from any top 10 conversation? Some are even saying the 90s were too long ago so do we throw out Jordan, Bird, Magic, etc?

When did stats and winning start to really count - 2012?
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Old 05-22-2018, 10:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
The question is...if you throw out Russell because he played in the 60s, do you also throw out Jerry West, Oscar, Wilt, etc from any top 10 conversation? Some are even saying the 90s were too long ago so do we throw out Jordan, Bird, Magic, etc?

When did stats and winning start to really count - 2012?
Honestly, Wilt is the only pre-merger guy I’d put in the top-20. The game and the level of athlete playing it has changed too much.

Why Wilt? He was a physical freak on the level of Shaq, and even at an advanced age, was capable of the impossible.
https://youtu.be/EwHP04TWOps
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Old 05-22-2018, 11:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
Honestly, Wilt is the only pre-merger guy I’d put in the top-20. The game and the level of athlete playing it has changed too much.

Why Wilt? He was a physical freak on the level of Shaq, and even at an advanced age, was capable of the impossible.
https://youtu.be/EwHP04TWOps
But if you throw out everyone he ever played against then why wouldn’t knock Wilt back about 10 spots? Wouldn’t that be like saying Wilt had gaudy numbers but he played in the G league? That then begs the question of when did stats and achievements start to count? Do you also throw out Kareem since the bulk of his better years were 35+ years ago? Are Magic and Bird top 20 instead of top 5-7 since they played in the 80s? MJ is barely scraping top 5 since he played in the 80s and 90s. I guess the “real” top 5 is only comprised of players having played after 2010? Durant, Harden, Lebron, Duncan, Curry...then you can start naming players pre 2010. In 20 years Magic, Bird, Jordan, Russell, West, Kareem, etc are maybe cracking the top 30.
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Old 05-22-2018, 12:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
But if you throw out everyone he ever played against then why wouldn’t knock Wilt back about 10 spots? Wouldn’t that be like saying Wilt had gaudy numbers but he played in the G league? That then begs the question of when did stats and achievements start to count? Do you also throw out Kareem since the bulk of his better years were 35+ years ago? Are Magic and Bird top 20 instead of top 5-7 since they played in the 80s? MJ is barely scraping top 5 since he played in the 80s and 90s. I guess the “real” top 5 is only comprised of players having played after 2010? Durant, Harden, Lebron, Duncan, Curry...then you can start naming players pre 2010. In 20 years Magic, Bird, Jordan, Russell, West, Kareem, etc are maybe cracking the top 30.
I gave you my cutoff: the merger. Everyone who played post-merger played against modern-era athletes. No, Wilt would not be the same today, but frankly, his numbers were cartoonish. I believe Russell was a legit modern-era athlete along the lines of Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman. Wilt averaged 30/28 in head-to-head matchups against that guy. It’s fairly easy to project him into the modern league. Is this fair to all of the older players? Possibly not. Some people, like the Big O, might get short thrift, but not many.
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Old 05-22-2018, 04:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
I gave you my cutoff: the merger. Everyone who played post-merger played against modern-era athletes. No, Wilt would not be the same today, but frankly, his numbers were cartoonish. I believe Russell was a legit modern-era athlete along the lines of Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman. Wilt averaged 30/28 in head-to-head matchups against that guy. It’s fairly easy to project him into the modern league. Is this fair to all of the older players? Possibly not. Some people, like the Big O, might get short thrift, but not many.
Seems like a logical fallacy to me. You’re basically saying it’s not possible for the genetic equivalent of any player after 1976 to have played before then. That’s just some random cutoff. I don’t see that done in baseball where players like Ruth, Mantle, Cobb, and Williams are almost universally recognized as top 10 all time.

If you say Wilt is the exception and can be included among the best ever than how good does that make Russell who won the MVP award in the same season Wilt averaged 50ppg? Russell has 5 MVPs vs 4 for Wilt. 4 of Russell’s MVPs were won with Wilt in the league putting up big stats. Obviously those selecting the most valuable player at the time (players) saw something in Russell that they didn’t see in Wilt.

Is it possible that gaudy stats can be misleading? Is it possible that at their peaks Red Auerbach would NOT have traded the ultimate team player/player-coach/captain/winner for Wilt Chamberlain?

Just like it may be unfair to exclude players before the merger...I’ll say it may be unfair but...5 MVPs > 4 MVPs & 11 championships > 2 championships
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Old 05-22-2018, 05:18 PM
 
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Let’s use say some combination of Rodman, Draymon Green and Duncan to paint a picture of what you might want in an NBA player.

- Let’s say that player is around 6’9-6’10 with Rodman’s athleticism and knack for rebounding...he leads the league in rebounding for 7-8+ seasons

- Now let’s say he’s also winning DPOY year after year. He’s considered the best defender for a decade.

- He’s has Duncan’s leadership, coachability, team skills and work ethic. Well liked by teammates and doesn’t care about drama/attention.

- This player is on a dynasty that wins 6+ championships and is considered the engine making the team go. The player that teammates feed off and look to for direction.

- Great passer that gives you 5-6 assist like Green or Duncan

How good would we consider this player in today’s NBA even if he only averaged a meager 13-14 ppg. Could he be considered better than say Westbrook or Harden who put up gaudy numbers?
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Old 05-22-2018, 05:21 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,214 posts, read 2,835,064 times
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Lol oh my god, stop crying Eddie...
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