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Old 05-22-2018, 07:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
The question is...if you throw out Russell because he played in the 60s, do you also throw out Jerry West, Oscar, Wilt, etc from any top 10 conversation? Some are even saying the 90s were too long ago so do we throw out Jordan, Bird, Magic, etc?

When did stats and winning start to really count - 2012?
Eddie. If someone if making nonsensical comments, just put them on ignore.

Why waste your time.

Myself and many other posters are willing to rationally discuss the topic so why let yourself get drug down into discussions that make zero sense to you or many others here.
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Old 05-23-2018, 10:49 AM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,873,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Seems like a logical fallacy to me. Youíre basically saying itís not possible for the genetic equivalent of any player after 1976 to have played before then. Thatís just some random cutoff. I donít see that done in baseball where players like Ruth, Mantle, Cobb, and Williams are almost universally recognized as top 10 all time.

If you say Wilt is the exception and can be included among the best ever than how good does that make Russell who won the MVP award in the same season Wilt averaged 50ppg? Russell has 5 MVPs vs 4 for Wilt. 4 of Russellís MVPs were won with Wilt in the league putting up big stats. Obviously those selecting the most valuable player at the time (players) saw something in Russell that they didnít see in Wilt.

Is it possible that gaudy stats can be misleading? Is it possible that at their peaks Red Auerbach would NOT have traded the ultimate team player/player-coach/captain/winner for Wilt Chamberlain?

Just like it may be unfair to exclude players before the merger...Iíll say it may be unfair but...5 MVPs > 4 MVPs & 11 championships > 2 championships
Plus, look at the numbers when these two went head-to-head in the playoffs--which they did over and over and over. Wilt's scoring usually fell at least 10 points from his season average. His percentages usually dropped 5-10%. Russell was a defensive stud, even against one of the most dominant players in NBA history.
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Old 05-23-2018, 12:12 PM
 
7,693 posts, read 4,554,568 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Seems like a logical fallacy to me. Youíre basically saying itís not possible for the genetic equivalent of any player after 1976 to have played before then. Thatís just some random cutoff. I donít see that done in baseball where players like Ruth, Mantle, Cobb, and Williams are almost universally recognized as top 10 all time.

If you say Wilt is the exception and can be included among the best ever than how good does that make Russell who won the MVP award in the same season Wilt averaged 50ppg? Russell has 5 MVPs vs 4 for Wilt. 4 of Russellís MVPs were won with Wilt in the league putting up big stats. Obviously those selecting the most valuable player at the time (players) saw something in Russell that they didnít see in Wilt.

Is it possible that gaudy stats can be misleading? Is it possible that at their peaks Red Auerbach would NOT have traded the ultimate team player/player-coach/captain/winner for Wilt Chamberlain?

Just like it may be unfair to exclude players before the merger...Iíll say it may be unfair but...5 MVPs > 4 MVPs & 11 championships > 2 championships
If two guys play the same position and guard each other, the guy who put up 30 points and 28 rebounds in head-to-head matchups is probably the better player. The one who wins more probably has the better team.

There is no getting around the fact that Bill Russell was a terrible offensive player. He never shot 50% from the field, and only went over 45% and four seasons. He was bigger, stronger and more athletic than 99% of the league. He just happened to be the perfect centerpiece for a system that usually included 3 to 6 Hall of Famers
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Old 05-23-2018, 12:20 PM
 
7,693 posts, read 4,554,568 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Plus, look at the numbers when these two went head-to-head in the playoffs--which they did over and over and over. Wilt's scoring usually fell at least 10 points from his season average. His percentages usually dropped 5-10%. Russell was a defensive stud, even against one of the most dominant players in NBA history.
https://www.basketball-reference.com....fcgi?id=PAGXr

Russell played Wilt better than anyone else possibly could, and Wilt still averaged 25.7 points and 28 rebounds against him in the playoffs. Wilt put up God-level numbers against one of the greatest post defenders who ever lived. Bill Russell could not stop or contain Wilt Chamberlain.
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Old 05-23-2018, 12:39 PM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,873,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
If two guys play the same position and guard each other, the guy who put up 30 points and 28 rebounds in head-to-head matchups is probably the better player. The one who wins more probably has the better team.

There is no getting around the fact that Bill Russell was a terrible offensive player. He never shot 50% from the field, and only went over 45% and four seasons. He was bigger, stronger and more athletic than 99% of the league. He just happened to be the perfect centerpiece for a system that usually included 3 to 6 Hall of Famers
Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
https://www.basketball-reference.com....fcgi?id=PAGXr

Russell played Wilt better than anyone else possibly could, and Wilt still averaged 25.7 points and 28 rebounds against him in the playoffs. Wilt put up God-level numbers against one of the greatest post defenders who ever lived. Bill Russell could not stop or contain Wilt Chamberlain.
Wilt averaged 50 for a season. He never averaged under 30 for a season in his prime, with the 50 point season, another just shy of 45, 4 over 35, and 2 between 30 & 35 (that was his '59-'66 career). These guys played each other 49 games in the playoffs (30 in that Prime Wilt stretch), and Wilt's average was just 25 in those matchups on 50.8% shooting (compared to 30.1 on 54% for his career). That was far below the standard by which Wilt feasted on the rest of the NBA.

And, of course, there is the most important statistic: 29-20. Russell's playoff record against Wilt.

And Wilt played with a bunch of hall of famers, too. Al Attles, Paul Arizin, Tom Gola, Guy Rodgers, Hal Greer, Chet Walker, Billy Cunningham.
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Old 05-23-2018, 01:48 PM
 
7,693 posts, read 4,554,568 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
Wilt averaged 50 for a season. He never averaged under 30 for a season in his prime, with the 50 point season, another just shy of 45, 4 over 35, and 2 between 30 & 35 (that was his '59-'66 career). These guys played each other 49 games in the playoffs (30 in that Prime Wilt stretch), and Wilt's average was just 25 in those matchups on 50.8% shooting (compared to 30.1 on 54% for his career). That was far below the standard by which Wilt feasted on the rest of the NBA.

And, of course, there is the most important statistic: 29-20. Russell's playoff record against Wilt.

And Wilt played with a bunch of hall of famers, too. Al Attles, Paul Arizin, Tom Gola, Guy Rodgers, Hal Greer, Chet Walker, Billy Cunningham.
The NBA was filled with rec league defenders in and an elite guy in Russell. Itís only logical that the elite guy would do a better job of guarding world than the rec league players. I think the narrative is that Russell had Wiltís number, but in reality, Wilt still feasted on himÖ.just not to the level that he did on the bums. Wiltís Warriors and Lakers teams had talent, but not the level of those Celtics. There are several Celtics teams were over half of the roster made the Hall of Fame. One team featured nine Hall of Famerís.
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:56 PM
 
11,679 posts, read 7,041,880 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladhands View Post
The NBA was filled with rec league defenders in and an elite guy in Russell. Itís only logical that the elite guy would do a better job of guarding world than the rec league players. I think the narrative is that Russell had Wiltís number, but in reality, Wilt still feasted on himÖ.just not to the level that he did on the bums. Wiltís Warriors and Lakers teams had talent, but not the level of those Celtics. There are several Celtics teams were over half of the roster made the Hall of Fame. One team featured nine Hall of Famerís.
Lifted from another forum...hereís Wiltís choking resume. For a guy that was playing against rec league guys he often came up short and that has nothing to do with HOF teammates.

1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In Game 5 Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Wilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Division Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Division Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 28-68 (41.2%)

1965 Division Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1963 Regular season
Wilt led his team to a 31-49 record, a record too poor to make the playoffs.

1962 Division Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1961 Division Semifinals
Wilt's Warriors had HCA and were facing the 38-41 Nationals. The result? The sub .500 Nationals swept Wilt's team 3-0. In an elimination Game 3 Wilt shot 7-14 from the freethrow line in a 3-point loss.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 21-38 (55.3%)

1960 Division Finals
After a regular season of 38.4 ppg, Wilt followed that up with a 30.5 ppg series in the Division Finals vs. Boston.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 35-65 (53.8%)
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Old 05-23-2018, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Land of the Great Bears
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Several-maybe 5?-of the world championships that the Celtics won over Wilt's teams were in game 7's with very close margins.

A few decades ago a Seattle HS team came up to play our local boys in a tournament, and they were coached by former great Bob Rule. His interview in the local paper was memorable for me because he made the claim that Russell was greatly overrated- in his opinion as a former opposing center. One thing he mentioned about Russell's indisputable skill in shot blocking was the great advantage he had of being left handed. As a lefty, I recognized this as a valid point.
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Old 05-24-2018, 07:38 AM
 
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Wilt definitely underachieved along with lacking in teammates. I wonder if he was putting more focus on his other numbers during the post season. Besides him some other all time greats that were lacking in teammates during prime years were Hakeem, Kobe, and Oscar. It’s crazy to think that there was a possibility of Hakeem teaming up with Clyde and MJ in the 80s and Tmac joining the Lakers in the late 90s. As far as underachieving all time greats I’d include Shaq and Lebron.
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Old 05-25-2018, 10:59 AM
 
7,693 posts, read 4,554,568 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
Lifted from another forum...hereís Wiltís choking resume. For a guy that was playing against rec league guys he often came up short and that has nothing to do with HOF teammates.

1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In Game 5 Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)
The Lakers played the Knicks, not the Celtics in that series. Wilt was 37 years old, and in his final season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)
Again, the 34 year old Wilt and his Lakers played the Knicks, not the Celtics. Wilt was a weak ft-shooter. So was Shaq. Wilt put up 21 pts and 24 boards, while shooting 62% from the field in that game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Wilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)
This is Wilt's single worst finals performance. He averaged only 12 points and 25 boards. He did, however shoot .500 from the field. He wasn't the offensive focus because this was Jerry West's team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
1968 Division Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)
Wilt averaged 22/25/7 in this series, on 49% shooting, with Russell guarding him. In the deciding game, Wilt put up 14/34/5. Five of the eight Celtics who played in that game are in the Hall of Fame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
1966 Division Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 28-68 (41.2%)

Wilt averaged 28/30/3 in this series. In the elimination game, he put up 46 points and 34 rebounds, of 56% from the field, against Russell. Six of the seven Celtics who played in that game are in the Hall of Fame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
1965 Division Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

Wilt averaged 30 points and 34 rebounds in this series, against Russell. In that Game 3 loss he put up 24 points and 37 boards. In game 7, he put up 30 points and 33 rebounds while shooting .800 from the field. Six of the eight Celtics who played in that game are in the hall of fame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)
In this series, Wilt averaged 29/28 against Bill Russell. EIGHT of the eleven Celtics who played in that series are Hall of Famers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post

1963 Regular season
Wilt led his team to a 31-49 record, a record too poor to make the playoffs.
He averaged 45/23. unfortunately his team sucked.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
1962 Division Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

Another way to put this is Wilt torched Russell for 34 points and 27 boards per game. In game 7, he put up 22/22 while shooting 47% from the field and 89% from the line. Seven of the eight Celtics who played in that game 7 are hall of famers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
1961 Division Semifinals
Wilt's Warriors had HCA and were facing the 38-41 Nationals. The result? The sub .500 Nationals swept Wilt's team 3-0. In an elimination Game 3 Wilt shot 7-14 from the freethrow line in a 3-point loss.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 21-38 (55.3%)
Wilt put up 37/23 in that series, including 33/23 in that elimination game. Unfortunately the Nationals caught fire with five players averaging double figures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiehaskell View Post
1960 Division Finals
After a regular season of 38.4 ppg, Wilt followed that up with a 30.5 ppg series in the Division Finals vs. Boston.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 35-65 (53.8%)
Again, Wilt lit Russell up, to the tune of 31/28, including 50/39 in game 5. There was nothing Russell, the greatest defender in the world, could do to stop him. Seven of the ten Celtics who played in that series are in the hall of fame.
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