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Old 06-17-2018, 01:41 AM
 
156 posts, read 267,758 times
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When adjusting for the time period and considering the talent difference relative to other NBA teams, were the “Heatles” simply the Warriors of their time? I know we knock Durant, but was Lebron’s move not equal when you consider the expectations/talent spread at the time?

One can(maybe) make the argument that the 2014 version of the Heat was washed, but for the first 3 years, the expectations were no different than that of this “unbeatable” Warriors team. The difference seems to be that KD has risen to the occasion, while refusing to let the equivalent of the 2011 NBA finals(i.e. major letdowns)to happen.

That said, I could be missing something...
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Old 06-17-2018, 03:48 AM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
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Nothing compares to today's Warriors, nothing.

They were already in the GOAT team discussion before Durant even joined them.
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Old 06-17-2018, 04:26 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,212 posts, read 2,833,476 times
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You're missing a lot, because most importantly the Heat were never as dominant as the Warriors. But let's unpack this:

1)Lebron joined a Heat team that was a 47-win 5-seed that got bounced in the 1st Round in 2010 in five games. A Heat team that only won 43 games the year prior and missed the playoffs completely in 2008...

Durant joined a Warriors team that won 73 games in 2016 and lost The Finals in 7. A Warriors team that won the championship just a year prior, and was a 51-win team the year before that. Durant joined a team who beat his Thunder in the '16 playoffs, but needed to come back from a 3-1 deficit in order to do so, so theoretically Durant had a roster that could threaten the Warriors...

An equal move would have been Lebron to the Celtics in 2010, who bounced him in 2010, were just two years removed from a title and were Finals runner-ups the year he went there, just like The Dubs were runner-ups the year Durant went there...

2)your thought that Durant didn't have a 2011 Finals moment is wrong; Durant just didn't have his in The Finals. His moment was the 2016 WCF, where he had three games to close out The Dubs, where in those three games he shot 32-81 (.395) and 7-26 from 3 (.269), and multiple times, appeared to wilt in the crunch, with unfathomable shot selection, turnovers, missed free throws. It was exactly Lebron's 2011 Finals; it just wasn't The Finals for Lebron...

And this wasn't necessarily a one-time thing. Durant had a record of 1-3 in the WCF before joining the Warriors. The '16 WCF was the most noticeable blunder but he had a history supported through evidence of playing below his best in clutch moments in the WCF. The Thunder were the perennial contender that couldn't get over the hump, and if you remember the '16 WCF, the conversation then was that this had happened to them before, he and Westbrook faded when needed most...

His team had Golden State on the ropes and he and his partner choked. It happens, it's happened to Magic and others as well. He has grown from it, but dont kid yourself. Kevin Durant absolutely had a 2011 Finals moment in the '16 WCF...

3)The Warriors have an .808 regular season, and .759 postseason, win percentage the past four years. They've only been pushed to seven games three times, only lost 20 playoff games, and had 5 sweeps...

The 4-year Heatles had a .716 regular season win percentage, a .678 playoff win percentage, and only two sweeps. They were dominant, but there are levels of dominance. They were never as dominant as the Warriors...

Now peak to peak, if you took the '13 Heat and played them versus the '16 Warriors, I think that's a real show, but as good as those Heat were, I think most basketball minds agree the '16 Warriors were better; the Warriors just had a higher peak. Hell its arguable that the '17 or '18 Warriors are better than the 73-win Warriors...

There's more to unpack here but your hypothesis is flat out wrong and these are the three things that immediately jumped out in my mind...
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Old 06-17-2018, 10:54 AM
 
156 posts, read 267,758 times
Reputation: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
You're missing a lot, because most importantly the Heat were never as dominant as the Warriors. But let's unpack this:

1)Lebron joined a Heat team that was a 47-win 5-seed that got bounced in the 1st Round in 2010 in five games. A Heat team that only won 43 games the year prior and missed the playoffs completely in 2008...

Durant joined a Warriors team that won 73 games in 2016 and lost The Finals in 7. A Warriors team that won the championship just a year prior, and was a 51-win team the year before that. Durant joined a team who beat his Thunder in the '16 playoffs, but needed to come back from a 3-1 deficit in order to do so, so theoretically Durant had a roster that could threaten the Warriors...
I guess my point is that once you look at the makeup of each team in their respective primes, you can argue that each team was equally distant(talent-wise) from their closest competition. I’m simply saying each move(Lebron and Durant) was equally unprecedented for each point in time, therefore the impact on winning should have been similar if each team operated optimally.

Obviously we are only two years into the KD move, but so far he’s meeting expectations which should be noted. If he has any series similar to Lebron’s in 2011, then they would have absolutely lost in this year’s WCF vs Houston, and possibly in the Finals against the Cavs. I think this reliance on KD to perform should be an indicator of how similar his situation is to Lebron’s situation in Miami.


Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
2)your thought that Durant didn't have a 2011 Finals moment is wrong; Durant just didn't have his in The Finals. His moment was the 2016 WCF, where he had three games to close out The Dubs, where in those three games he shot 32-81 (.395) and 7-26 from 3 (.269), and multiple times, appeared to wilt in the crunch, with unfathomable shot selection, turnovers, missed free throws. It was exactly Lebron's 2011 Finals; it just wasn't The Finals for Lebron...
We can definitely isolate bad moments for both KD and Lebron(2008-10 playoffs) prior to them moving to their respective super teams. But for purposes of this excercise, it only makes sense to look at what they’ve accomplished with a super cast surrounding them.

Lebron created the super team of that time, and KD only followed the established model. Ultimately, is this not simply a compounding effect of Lebron going to Miami to create a super team, followed by him leaving in 2015 for another all star team( for that time)? With each new team created sets the bar a little higher, which is why a head to head comparison doesn’t ‘adjust for inflation’ per se.

The Warriors have also shown they aren’t invincible, between last year’s Spurs series(pre-Kawhi injury), this year’s Houston series, and games 1 and 3 of this year’s Finals..

Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
3)The Warriors have an .808 regular season, and .759 postseason, win percentage the past four years. They've only been pushed to seven games three times, only lost 20 playoff games, and had 5 sweeps...

The 4-year Heatles had a .716 regular season win percentage, a .678 playoff win percentage, and only two sweeps. They were dominant, but there are levels of dominance. They were never as dominant as the Warriors...

Is it possible that this is an illustration of maximized output for the former, and underachievement for the latter?

Once agin, this isn’t strictly a head to head comparison of these teams, but rather a review of their expectations against the opponents of their time. I remember how confident the Heat were
and the expectation of “not 1, not 2, not 3...”, so this has to account for something when evaluating the relative strength of each team in their era.

Last edited by Lakers4kb; 06-17-2018 at 11:45 AM.. Reason: Quote
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Old 06-17-2018, 11:01 AM
 
803 posts, read 557,467 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
You're missing a lot, because most importantly the Heat were never as dominant as the Warriors. But let's unpack this:

1)Lebron joined a Heat team that was a 47-win 5-seed that got bounced in the 1st Round in 2010 in five games. A Heat team that only won 43 games the year prior and missed the playoffs completely in 2008...

Durant joined a Warriors team that won 73 games in 2016 and lost The Finals in 7. A Warriors team that won the championship just a year prior, and was a 51-win team the year before that. Durant joined a team who beat his Thunder in the '16 playoffs, but needed to come back from a 3-1 deficit in order to do so, so theoretically Durant had a roster that could threaten the Warriors...

An equal move would have been Lebron to the Celtics in 2010, who bounced him in 2010, were just two years removed from a title and were Finals runner-ups the year he went there, just like The Dubs were runner-ups the year Durant went there...

2)your thought that Durant didn't have a 2011 Finals moment is wrong; Durant just didn't have his in The Finals. His moment was the 2016 WCF, where he had three games to close out The Dubs, where in those three games he shot 32-81 (.395) and 7-26 from 3 (.269), and multiple times, appeared to wilt in the crunch, with unfathomable shot selection, turnovers, missed free throws. It was exactly Lebron's 2011 Finals; it just wasn't The Finals for Lebron...

And this wasn't necessarily a one-time thing. Durant had a record of 1-3 in the WCF before joining the Warriors. The '16 WCF was the most noticeable blunder but he had a history supported through evidence of playing below his best in clutch moments in the WCF. The Thunder were the perennial contender that couldn't get over the hump, and if you remember the '16 WCF, the conversation then was that this had happened to them before, he and Westbrook faded when needed most...

His team had Golden State on the ropes and he and his partner choked. It happens, it's happened to Magic and others as well. He has grown from it, but dont kid yourself. Kevin Durant absolutely had a 2011 Finals moment in the '16 WCF...

3)The Warriors have an .808 regular season, and .759 postseason, win percentage the past four years. They've only been pushed to seven games three times, only lost 20 playoff games, and had 5 sweeps...

The 4-year Heatles had a .716 regular season win percentage, a .678 playoff win percentage, and only two sweeps. They were dominant, but there are levels of dominance. They were never as dominant as the Warriors...

Now peak to peak, if you took the '13 Heat and played them versus the '16 Warriors, I think that's a real show, but as good as those Heat were, I think most basketball minds agree the '16 Warriors were better; the Warriors just had a higher peak. Hell its arguable that the '17 or '18 Warriors are better than the 73-win Warriors...

There's more to unpack here but your hypothesis is flat out wrong and these are the three things that immediately jumped out in my mind...
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Painful memories watching magic dribble out the clock agains the Celtics in 1984 as well as Worthy throwing the ball away in the backcourt I think in that same series. It’s a fact, Durant couldn’t beat them so he joined them.
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Old 06-18-2018, 09:50 AM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,876,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
Nothing compares to today's Warriors, nothing.

They were already in the GOAT team discussion before Durant even joined them.
The Showtime Lakers had 2 top 5 players in history plus James Worthy and a solid supporting cast. The 90s Bulls had one of the top 5 players in history plus the best defender of his generation who was a versatile offensive talent plus another top defender of his generation who was a great rebounder.
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Old 06-18-2018, 01:55 PM
 
4,492 posts, read 3,157,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
The Showtime Lakers had 2 top 5 players in history plus James Worthy and a solid supporting cast. The 90s Bulls had one of the top 5 players in history plus the best defender of his generation who was a versatile offensive talent plus another top defender of his generation who was a great rebounder.


One thing that I think about with the Bulls is how many different Finals foes they faced. There wasn't really a team in the West that was consistent. They played Lakers, Portland, Suns, Supersonics, and Utah twice. Outside of the Jazz, those other 4 championships were pretty easy for Chicago. Lakers were at the end of their Showtime run and Portland was at the end of their run as well. Phoenix and Seattle were both one and dones. Utah had the best shot, but could just never get over the Jordan hump.


For Cleveland, Golden State just kept getting better. The acquisition of Durant pretty much put the league on notice. Also, Golden State has had some injuries, in certain rounds (CP3 injury) or when Cleveland lost Irving and Love to season ending injuries, lean in their favor. Same for Cleveland this year with Boston losing Irving and Hayward to season ending injuries.


No way the 2011-2014 Heat stack up to the current Warriors. I don't even think it's a discussion worth having. If Durant never came to Golden State, I think this conversation would have merit, but once they added Durant, they became the lineup of death. And that moniker has held up well the last 2 seasons as they've only been challenged once and that was from a poorly timed CP3 injury.
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Old 06-18-2018, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
28,266 posts, read 26,252,873 times
Reputation: 11726
Quote:
Originally Posted by weezerfan84 View Post
No way the 2011-2014 Heat stack up to the current Warriors. I don't even think it's a discussion worth having. If Durant never came to Golden State, I think this conversation would have merit, but once they added Durant, they became the lineup of death. And that moniker has held up well the last 2 seasons as they've only been challenged once and that was from a poorly timed CP3 injury.
Maybe, maybe not. All champions seem absolutely unbeatable in their moment. Tyson seemed unbeatable until we all woke up the next morning and saw images of him crawling on the canvas in search of his mouthpiece.
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Old 06-19-2018, 06:22 AM
 
8,088 posts, read 5,297,927 times
Reputation: 9241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
Nothing compares to today's Warriors, nothing.

They were already in the GOAT team discussion before Durant even joined them.
Golden State = 2 Superstars (Curry and Durant) with 2 Stars (Green and Thompson) and a decent bench.

Miami Heat = 1 Superstar with 1 star (Bosh) and 1 aged star (Wade) and an ok bench.
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