U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Basketball
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 12-08-2018, 06:48 AM
 
5,428 posts, read 1,543,037 times
Reputation: 2264

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
ESPN showed a graphic halfway through the 3rd last night, that on the year, Simmons has taken 18 shots outside of the paint, compared to 239 within. 18 shots outside the paint! In 27 games!

I'd argue that Simmons is the guy with the lower ceiling, because he hasn't even shown a willingness to diversify his offensive game. That means his ceiling isn't even Giannis-level. Simmons offense is drive and kick, or layup. His passes are difficult to defend, and he's a strong driver. He is not a difficult player to scheme against defensively, because his threat can be minimized unless he's in transition or has a running start...
Its obvious that Simmons will endeavor to improve his shot (and I'm sure he already is working hard on it, because videos show him shooting treys very effectively in practice and warm-ups), and there really is no rush.
Plus I think he can average about 25ppg without a jump shot, because he's able to get to the basket at will (and also is good in the post), but he prioritizes passing a lot more.
If he improves his free-throws to about 70% he'll drive a lot more.
He's currently averaging 15.3ppg .571fg .605ft.
Even when Boston "closed him down" in the playoffs, he still had these numbers-
Game 1 = 18-7-6
Game 2 = 1-5-7
Game 3 = 16-8-8
Game 4 = 19-13-5
Game 5 = 18-8-6
That was Simmons at his worst, and vs elite defense in the playoffs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-08-2018, 06:51 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,209 posts, read 2,825,676 times
Reputation: 4497
In other news, the Bucks are coming back to Earth. And my Sacramento Kings are acing the first step towards being a good team--->to be a good team, you have to beat the bad teams. They do that with regularity in 2018-19...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-08-2018, 07:10 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,209 posts, read 2,825,676 times
Reputation: 4497
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAGAalot View Post
Its obvious that Simmons will endeavor to improve his shot (and I'm sure he already is working hard on it, because videos show him shooting treys very effectively in practice and warm-ups), and there really is no rush.
Plus I think he can average about 25ppg without a jump shot, because he's able to get to the basket at will (and also is good in the post), but he prioritizes passing a lot more.
If he improves his free-throws to about 70% he'll drive a lot more.
He's currently averaging 15.3ppg .571fg .605ft.
Even when Boston "closed him down" in the playoffs, he still had these numbers-
Game 1 = 18-7-6
Game 2 = 1-5-7
Game 3 = 16-8-8
Game 4 = 19-13-5
Game 5 = 18-8-6
That was Simmons at his worst, and vs elite defense in the playoffs.
His 57% shooting would've been more commendable 20+ years ago because of his style of offense. It means nothing in today's NBA, if you can't hit 57% of your shots while taking 93% of your shots in the paint, you don't belong in the modern NBA. Means nothing...

There is no evidence in real action that he will develop a jumper, although his free throw shooting has improved incrementally from last year...

Doncic is far from a finished product lmao. He's hitting 38% of his threes while still adjusting to the deeper 3point arc, which indicates he'll hit 42-43% or greater with regularity, as he matures his NBA game. He's also still developing his post game. Luka is going to be an All-Timer. You can book it. Simmons is a guy who "might be" and has the "potential" of an All-Timer, but he has a whole lot of "ifs". "If" he develops a jumper, "if" his free throws improve, "if" he can step up in the postseason...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-08-2018, 06:33 PM
 
Location: Washington D.C. By way of Texas
18,636 posts, read 27,047,623 times
Reputation: 9577
Luka is for real.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-09-2018, 02:47 AM
 
311 posts, read 218,408 times
Reputation: 342
As a Sixers fan, this team is smoke and mirrors. Adam Silver shouldn't be anywhere near power because he forced Hinkie out as GM. I don't know how an NBA commissioner can get away with that. I truly think the team would have dynasty potential had Hinkie stayed but I hated Colangelo from the start and he proved every ounce of my hate.
I hated the Fultz decision not even so much because of the pick itself but because everything about it was so antithetical to The Process. The Process was about always taking the best player available or trading down to accumulate future picks. By trading up and giving up TWO lottery picks, Colangelo pulled a Billy King-esque gaffe that's inexcusable.
Also, not trading Ben Simmons for Kawhi will turn out to be a huge mistake for the Sixers. You can tell by the way Simmons plays that he's gifted in a special way, but he doesn't have next level work ethic. I don't think Simmons peak will reach where Kawhi is now. The best time to trade with teams is when they're desperate. The Spurs were desperate this summer. The Raptors gave up Derozan for Kawhi, look at them now. When Cleveland was in a bad situation because Kyrie wanted out, look how Boston took advantage. Even the Sixers I feel definitely improved in the Jimmy Butler deal with a desperate Minnesota. The Sixers should've gambled and given up Simmons for Kawhi. You don't pass up on a top 3 talent who just turned 27 in a star-driven league. I've been saying that the team cannot win a championship with Embiid as their best player but the team missed a golden opportunity to add a better player even after Lebron went to LA.
The GMing of this team is its downfall, no thanks to the NBA commissioner himself. The Sixers of this era will be like the early 2010s Clippers, a pretty exciting team, but always faltering in the playoffs due to poor roster structure and one-dimensional "superstars." Regular season wins don't mean crap in the NBA. The Hawks won 60 games a few years ago and everyone knew they were bogus.
The irony is that the Sixers will end up being maybe a slightly better version of the team Hinkie wanted to avoid in the first place: a team that could usually qualify for the playoffs but not do much else. Sure, the Sixers probably do a little better than that but I have a hard time envisioning this core ending up with a championship. The only thing that could save them now is very agressive GMing that isn't afraid to dangle star players like Simmons while they're still perceived highly. Unfortunately this past summer was probably the best offer they could've had and they didn't even consider it. People may end up saying The Process failed but in reality it was just cut short. The Process ended when Hinkie penned his 13-page resignation letter. Maybe the gods will grant the remnants of The Process one long-awaited championship.

Last edited by jjv007; 12-09-2018 at 02:57 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-09-2018, 03:54 AM
 
1,565 posts, read 822,923 times
Reputation: 1647
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
Is there any doubt that Luka Doncic is the future of the NBA? Look at all of the picks of the last four years and tell me who has a higher ceiling than Luka?

Towns, Booker, Porzingis, Rozier, Simmons, Ingram, Brown, Buddy, Murray, Tatum, Fox, Markannen, Ayton, Bagley, Young...

Only Porzingis looks like he has as no ceiling, provided he returns to form and keeps developing. A bunch of these guys will turn into good-to-great players but Luka looks like he will be be Top 3 of anybody in this group, and he will be a Top 10 player in the NBA in two years, and stay at that elite status for a long time...
For at least 10 years I've seen well-written/spoken and well-reasoned arguments why this player and that player will dominate and be the new face of the league, and the only one that became a championship-winning "future of the NBA" was Steph Curry (and he wasn't on any non-GSW fan's radar until 2014). The rest either still show potential, or they slipped into mediocrity. So we'll see.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-09-2018, 04:10 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,209 posts, read 2,825,676 times
Reputation: 4497
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjv007 View Post
As a Sixers fan, this team is smoke and mirrors. Adam Silver shouldn't be anywhere near power because he forced Hinkie out as GM. I don't know how an NBA commissioner can get away with that. I truly think the team would have dynasty potential had Hinkie stayed but I hated Colangelo from the start and he proved every ounce of my hate.
I hated the Fultz decision not even so much because of the pick itself but because everything about it was so antithetical to The Process. The Process was about always taking the best player available or trading down to accumulate future picks. By trading up and giving up TWO lottery picks, Colangelo pulled a Billy King-esque gaffe that's inexcusable.
Also, not trading Ben Simmons for Kawhi will turn out to be a huge mistake for the Sixers. You can tell by the way Simmons plays that he's gifted in a special way, but he doesn't have next level work ethic. I don't think Simmons peak will reach where Kawhi is now. The best time to trade with teams is when they're desperate. The Spurs were desperate this summer. The Raptors gave up Derozan for Kawhi, look at them now. When Cleveland was in a bad situation because Kyrie wanted out, look how Boston took advantage. Even the Sixers I feel definitely improved in the Jimmy Butler deal with a desperate Minnesota. The Sixers should've gambled and given up Simmons for Kawhi. You don't pass up on a top 3 talent who just turned 27 in a star-driven league. I've been saying that the team cannot win a championship with Embiid as their best player but the team missed a golden opportunity to add a better player even after Lebron went to LA.
The GMing of this team is its downfall, no thanks to the NBA commissioner himself. The Sixers of this era will be like the early 2010s Clippers, a pretty exciting team, but always faltering in the playoffs due to poor roster structure and one-dimensional "superstars." Regular season wins don't mean crap in the NBA. The Hawks won 60 games a few years ago and everyone knew they were bogus.
The irony is that the Sixers will end up being maybe a slightly better version of the team Hinkie wanted to avoid in the first place: a team that could usually qualify for the playoffs but not do much else. Sure, the Sixers probably do a little better than that but I have a hard time envisioning this core ending up with a championship. The only thing that could save them now is very agressive GMing that isn't afraid to dangle star players like Simmons while they're still perceived highly. Unfortunately this past summer was probably the best offer they could've had and they didn't even consider it. People may end up saying The Process failed but in reality it was just cut short. The Process ended when Hinkie penned his 13-page resignation letter. Maybe the gods will grant the remnants of The Process one long-awaited championship.
I agree with this. The Sixers have a low ceiling, maybe they'll reach an ECF but even that is in question. When it comes to playoff basketball, usually it comes down to where the best coach and best players are, and no team has bucked that trend since Larry Brown's 2000s Pistons (who were 2-3 in ECF but did get one championship from it)...

If we're looking at the East standings as they are currently, Philly would draw Milwaukee in Round 2. Personally I find these teams on the same level, however, Milwaukee has smarter coaching and better shooting and would have home court and a deeper rotation. I think Embiid and Giannis are on the same level, but if I have to give the nudge as to who's better, I'd lean Giannis. This would be a series of playoff unprovens, so it would be there for Philly's taking...

If they draw Toronto in the ECF, nothing tells me they can beat Toronto as they are currently. The Raptors are deeper, better coached, better shooting, more consistent defensively, have the best player on the floor, home court, and better leadership. That series may not make it past 5 games if it started today...

Still, Philly has good odds on advancing to the ECF, and if they get there, that's forward progress from last year. So you have to think a full training camp and the extra year of playing together bodes well for the future of the core, right? The big question, is you have to be sure you can win with Embiid-Butler-Simmons. I would hesitate before giving Jimmy the supermax. He has made them a better team, but a lot of this to me hinges on his play in the playoffs. A smart GM isn't giving supermax dollars to a player that isn't next level elite. To this point, Butler has never proven he's a killer in the playoffs. If they make the ECF but get embarrassed and/or Butler's play has no next level (again, he's in Year 8 and hasn't proven he's that guy as of yet), I still offer him a deal, because the team did improve, but he's not supermax...

With Butler, it's all about the money, and he'll walk if his team doesn't value him as a Top 8 player or so (because he isn't). Collateral damage, back to your smart GM point, the Bulls have a higher ceiling without him, the Wolves are instantly better without him, you have to take the minor, short term hit of letting him go. Do not give this man the money. The Sixers could then use that money to retool their depth and shooting in the offseason, Embiid and Simmons will be a year older and more experienced...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spade View Post
Luka is for real.
Repeat that for Mag again lmao. Stylistically he's flashier than Dirk and their games don't resemble, but in terms of impact to the organization, Luka is very much The New Dirk. He will be a Top 10 player within two years and guys will want to play with him, and he'll hold that elite status for a long time. He can play anywhere from 1-4 and in my opinion he's already an All-Star. I don't know when Dallas will win another chip, but I'm 100% confident saying when it does happen, Luka will be the guy bringing it back to Dallas...

Conversely, the Rockets are toast. They still have time to straighten up and get into the tournament, but I don't see it. Paul has shown decline for two years now and the Rockets made the worst move they could make-->resign Paul at near supermax money. Now they're in a pickle financially with a player who is no longer a superstar and declining fast...

Paul has to be one of the more overrated players of this generation, hands down. The Clippers declined to pay him and have an infinitely higher ceiling because of it. Again, great GMing...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-09-2018, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
4,209 posts, read 2,825,676 times
Reputation: 4497
Quote:
Originally Posted by nc17 View Post
For at least 10 years I've seen well-written/spoken and well-reasoned arguments why this player and that player will dominate and be the new face of the league, and the only one that became a championship-winning "future of the NBA" was Steph Curry (and he wasn't on any non-GSW fan's radar until 2014). The rest either still show potential, or they slipped into mediocrity. So we'll see.
Well, I didn't crown anyone as face of The League. But I did want to look at the five drafts from 2009-2013 to see how those players panned out to this point:

2009
Blake Griffin (2011 ROY, 4x All-NBA, 5x All-Star)
James Harden (2018 MVP, 5x All-NBA, 6x All-Star, 2012 6th Man, 2018 scoring champ, 2017 assists champ)
Steph Curry (3x champion, 2x MVP, 5x All-NBA, 5x All-Star, 2016 scoring champ, 2016 50/40/90)
DeMar DeRozan (2x All-NBA, 4x All-Star)

Tyreke Evans, Ricky Rubio, Tyler Hansbrough, and Blske were the hyped players that year. Everybody but Blake was a bust, though Rubio has turned into something of a late bloomer. If I recall correctly, Steph was seen as talented but a developmental project; safe to say he blew all expectations to smithereens...

2010
John Wall (2017 All-NBA 3rd Team, 5x All-Star, 2015 All-Defense 2nd Team)
DeMarcus Cousins (2x All-NBA, 4x All-Star)
Paul George (4x All-NBA, 5x All-Star, 2013 MIP, 3x All-Defense)

Wall and Boogie were the big deals in that draft. Both are far from busts but Wall in particular has fallen short of how great we expected him to be...

2011
Kyrie Irving (2016 NBA champion, 2015 All-NBA 3rd Team, 5x All-Star, 2014 All-Star MVP, 2012 ROY)
Klay Thompson (3x champion, 2x All-NBA, 4x All-Star)
Kawhi Leonard (2014 NBA champion, 2014 Finals MVP, 2x All-NBA, 2x All-Star, 2x DPOY, 4x All-Defense)
Jimmy Butler (2x All-NBA, 4x All-Star, 4x All-Defense, 2015 MIP)
Isaiah Thomas (2017 All-NBA 2nd Team, 2x All-Star)

Kyrie, Kemba, Jimmer, and the Morris twins were way hyped that year. Kawhi smashed expectations, Kyrie has been overrated since college...

2012
Anthony Davis (3x All-NBA, 5x All-Star, 3x All-Defense, 2017 All-Star MVP)
Damian Lillard (3x All-NBA, 3x All-Star, 2013 ROY)
Draymond Green (3x champion, 2x All-NBA, 3x All-Star, 2017 DPOY, 4x All-Defense)

Davis has fulfilled expectations in everything besides rings, so he kinda disproves your statement. LeBron didn't win a ring until Year 9, then proceeded to win three of the next four. Davis is only in Year 7. He has time and, if he joins Boston or LA as expected within the next two years, he definitely will be winning some championships soon...

2013
Victor Oladipo (2018 All-NBA 3rd Team, 2018 All-Star, 2018 MIP, 2018 All-Defense)
Giannis Antetekuonmpo (2x All-NBA, 2x All-Star, 2017 All-Defense, 2017 MIP)
Rudy Gobert (2017 All-NBA 2nd Team, 2018 DPOY, 2x All-Defense)

Anthony Bennett is the biggest bust ever. Nerlens Noel, Ben McLemore, Michael Carter-Williams, Trey Burke, Shabazz Muhammad, this draft class has the most busts in recent memory...

........

Players typically peak between Year 5 and Year 10--->some guys peak early (I personally think Tim Duncan's absolute best was in Year 5), some guys a little later (Kobe's absolute peak was around Year 9-10, but both he and Duncan sustained that elite play for a long time). Everyone from these draft classes is in that window, so barring uncharacteristic late bloomers, you know what you got. So when I mentioned the youngsters of the last five draft classes, I'm just projecting who looks the best, based off of what we've seen to this point...

I haven't seen a rookie as NBA ready as Luka in a long, long time, maybe since LeBron. He may not ascend to face of the league status (remember, Dirk was never the best player in the game, but he was a Top 5 player for at least a half-decade and a Top 10 player for twice as long). He has Dirk potential though, you can already see he's turning the franchise around. He's their best player as a rookie. Luka is the kind of talent that can be Dirk good, for that long. I don't know how anyone can doubt Luka, but he will be eliminating all doubt within a couple years, and no player in the last 5 drafts looks as good as he does out the gate. I have no doubt about that!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-10-2018, 06:28 AM
 
Location: Wisconsin
2,747 posts, read 2,368,848 times
Reputation: 2607
If you look at the top 8 teams in the East, Bucks are 2-0 vs the Raptors & 1-0 vs all the other teams except the Celtics. I'm a homer, but I think the Bucks have a good argument for the best team in the east.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-10-2018, 10:53 AM
 
3,565 posts, read 1,873,763 times
Reputation: 2263
Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
I agree with this. The Sixers have a low ceiling, maybe they'll reach an ECF but even that is in question. When it comes to playoff basketball, usually it comes down to where the best coach and best players are, and no team has bucked that trend since Larry Brown's 2000s Pistons (who were 2-3 in ECF but did get one championship from it)...

If we're looking at the East standings as they are currently, Philly would draw Milwaukee in Round 2. Personally I find these teams on the same level, however, Milwaukee has smarter coaching and better shooting and would have home court and a deeper rotation. I think Embiid and Giannis are on the same level, but if I have to give the nudge as to who's better, I'd lean Giannis. This would be a series of playoff unprovens, so it would be there for Philly's taking...

If they draw Toronto in the ECF, nothing tells me they can beat Toronto as they are currently. The Raptors are deeper, better coached, better shooting, more consistent defensively, have the best player on the floor, home court, and better leadership. That series may not make it past 5 games if it started today...

Milwaukee has been the best team in the East to this point. We will see if their shooters deliver in the playoffs as they have delivered thus far in the regular season. The 76ers have a nice option to defend Giannis in Jimmy Butler. Milwaukee's attack runs through Giannis' physicality and paint attack. Butler's elite defense could really alter the Bucks' gameplan in a playoff series, and I'm not sure that the Bucks will have an answer (Kawhi presents the same problem for the Bucks--and the Raps are loaded with other wing defenders, too).



Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
Still, Philly has good odds on advancing to the ECF, and if they get there, that's forward progress from last year. So you have to think a full training camp and the extra year of playing together bodes well for the future of the core, right? The big question, is you have to be sure you can win with Embiid-Butler-Simmons. I would hesitate before giving Jimmy the supermax. He has made them a better team, but a lot of this to me hinges on his play in the playoffs. A smart GM isn't giving supermax dollars to a player that isn't next level elite. To this point, Butler has never proven he's a killer in the playoffs. If they make the ECF but get embarrassed and/or Butler's play has no next level (again, he's in Year 8 and hasn't proven he's that guy as of yet), I still offer him a deal, because the team did improve, but he's not supermax...

With Butler, it's all about the money, and he'll walk if his team doesn't value him as a Top 8 player or so (because he isn't). Collateral damage, back to your smart GM point, the Bulls have a higher ceiling without him, the Wolves are instantly better without him, you have to take the minor, short term hit of letting him go. Do not give this man the money. The Sixers could then use that money to retool their depth and shooting in the offseason, Embiid and Simmons will be a year older and more experienced...

Butler deserves a supermax. He delivers tremendous value as a wing who is an elite defender and a well-rounded offensive talent. It would be a mistake to let him leave, just like it was a mistake in Minnesota.



Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
Repeat that for Mag again lmao. Stylistically he's flashier than Dirk and their games don't resemble, but in terms of impact to the organization, Luka is very much The New Dirk. He will be a Top 10 player within two years and guys will want to play with him, and he'll hold that elite status for a long time. He can play anywhere from 1-4 and in my opinion he's already an All-Star. I don't know when Dallas will win another chip, but I'm 100% confident saying when it does happen, Luka will be the guy bringing it back to Dallas...

I like the skills Doncic brings. I'm not sold on him rapidly ascending to a top 10 player. His shooting is pretty good, but not elite. His finishing isn't that good. He's capable of making some beautiful passes, but he hasn't shown the ability to run an offense yet. The Mavs aren't very good defensively (unsurprising), but he has to get better on that end--especially if he won't develop into a full-time point guard.



Quote:
Originally Posted by murksiderock View Post
Conversely, the Rockets are toast. They still have time to straighten up and get into the tournament, but I don't see it. Paul has shown decline for two years now and the Rockets made the worst move they could make-->resign Paul at near supermax money. Now they're in a pickle financially with a player who is no longer a superstar and declining fast...

Paul has to be one of the more overrated players of this generation, hands down. The Clippers declined to pay him and have an infinitely higher ceiling because of it. Again, great GMing...

The Rockets had an epic failure of an offseason. They were right on the cusp of a title, and they sacrificed all future flexibility without even trying to run it back once with a championship-caliber team. They figured out that you need two stars who can create offense off of the dribble, 2 starting wings who can shoot and defend, a speed 5, and a PJ Tucker--a wing with power forward physique or a power forward with wing height--all of that puts you on the level of the Warriors. And then they let the two starting wings walk, knowing that one of the two stars is aging and will be aging quickly.



Chris Paul has been an excellent player for a long time, but he obviously won't deliver good value on that contract.



Quote:
Originally Posted by everwinter View Post
If you look at the top 8 teams in the East, Bucks are 2-0 vs the Raptors & 1-0 vs all the other teams except the Celtics. I'm a homer, but I think the Bucks have a good argument for the best team in the east.

The Raps look great, they have the best player in the East, and that player has won a title and has led a team on a deep playoff run. The Bucks have the best point differential in the East. I think the Raps have to be the East's favorite, with a relatively narrow gap before the Bucks. The 76ers are a question mark, and need some time to gel with Butler--they are clearly a couple steps behind at this point. The Cs don't have it yet. They might get it, but Stevens is struggling to find the right combinations and lineups at this point. This looks like a team without identity.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Sports > Basketball
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top