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Old 06-14-2009, 12:03 AM
 
Location: Queens, NY
334 posts, read 267,628 times
Reputation: 194

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Jack22 View Post
Where are the Kobe/Laker haters McGowdog and U.A.T.???

They straight up disappeared after the Lakers beat the Nuggets.
Me? I've been sidetracked and haven't been involved with the NBA much, besides watching the Finals. I've caught all of the first three games, but only some of the last game. In a related note, I have been playing more basketball lately.

So anyway.....here's my question. Where the hell were you in the "Kobe Hater" thread after I completely and utterly dismantled your incoherent and illogical babble that was supposed to be your "argument"? Here....I'll refresh your memory:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Jack22 View Post
Absolute cheap shots, talking a series which has no relevance to today.

What does Lebron have to do to be successful. He has not been as successful as Kobe.

Well you did not have to watch Kobe's documentary, did you?

Talk about him winning the MVP or the fact that his team reached the NBA Finals last year. Just harp about his inperfections.

Kobe does not have to please you nor prove anything to you no more than my a$$ has to.

He is a great player.

YOU DON'T LIKE KOBE. IT'S THAT SIMPLE.

What you are doing, is that you are trying to border along that hate-love boundary with Kobe by saying how you hated Jordan. I can still see through your hatred of that guy. So buy not explicitly saying that you hate Kobe, you can hide your true dislike for him.

In music especially jazz, aspiring jazz musicians "mimic" or imitate their favorite players. Kobe learned from the best. Nothing wrong with it.

If Kobe wins a championship, you will have nothing else to say. Because that is the only way that you will give him any credit.

Comparing him to Jordan is so unfair by saying how Kobe has to do this or that to be like Jordan. No one not even Lebron will live up to Jordan. Compare Kobe to players of today.

The Lakers lost last year's finals, not Kobe. Kobe would be 4 out of 6 if he wins this year and guess what...............Lebron would be 0 for 1 or 0 for 2.
And here's my rebuttal:

Quote:
Originally Posted by urban analysis therapist View Post
After reading your post, it's pretty evident that you will support Kobe no matter what. So I can't really argue with you because your mind is already set and rigid.

I mean, you imply that I believe Lebron is better than Kobe and is more of a 'true winner', when I didn't even bring up Lebron at all in my posts. I mentioned King Krab absolutely, positively zero times in all of my posts on this thread. So why bring him up at all when you're replying to my post?

Yes, I have mentioned Lebron in other threads, but my admiration for him is more on the lines of his potential. I mean, this is a guy who's bigger than Karl Malone but who moves maybe even faster than Bo Jackson. How can you not believe great things are in store for him, especially with the way he's been playing as of late? Kobe will remain fantastically inventive in coming up with new moves and ways to maximize his body, but he's also 31years old with 13 seasons to date.

And when I mentioned I hated Jordan, I didn't say anything about hating him now. I love His Airness nowadays in retrospect, and a small part of me wishes that I had appreciated him more back in the day. But my blinding hate for how he dismantled my Knicks teams back in the day, as well as pretty much any other team that got in his way, prevented me from truly acknowledging his greatness.

As for "greatness" - I skimmed around the definition, but I'll be explicit here. I believe "greatness" leads a player to play for one thing, and one thing only - winning, and winning a championship at that. I admire those in the league who put their minds forth to that pursuit will always win my admiration. Even those who fail to win it, but who gut it out during the pursuit will win my admiration. See the example of Steve Nash insisting on playing through despite a cut on his nose that wouldn't stop bleeding, courtesy of Tony Parker's head. For the counter-example, see Wilt Chamberlain asking to be taken out of the deciding game against the Celtics due to a mild injury.

As for Kobe - I honestly don't think he has singleforthly put his mind to winning a championship over his whole career. Yes, this season, he has commited to winning a championship. But in previous seasons, he put winning a scoring title, albeit on a bad team, over promoting a true team approach towards going for a title. And in seasons before that, he was more concerned about fighting Shaq for alpha-dog status on the Lakers. Honestly, if he really wanted to win championships, he and Shaq would have never broken up - they were one of the most devastating combos the league has ever seen.

So to give another example of gutting it out to win - Kobe playing with a broken pinky on his shooting hand. What an unbelievably incredibly tough move by an incredibly tough player. He honestly does want that championship this season, no doubt about it. But to me, his motivation for winning it doesn't come from the simple pursuit to win at all costs, but rather, it comes from the pursuit of a certain other player's legacy (or the cementing of his own legacy).

It's not a wrong move, by any means. As you mentioned, why not try to imitate the greatest player ever? But it's not a pursuit that I can truly admire - I really do want for Kobe to be his own player. If you call it "Kobe Hate", so be it. Just don't confuse it with the genuine hate I had for MJ back in the day.



As for your 'jazz analogy' - I was a huge self-read student in Jazz for several years. One of the premises during jam sessions was that, yes, mimicry was flattery, but creativity and evolution were much more highly valued. While Charlie Parker quoted Louis Armstrong's solo in West End Blues in his solo in Cheryl, he certainly didn't copy Mr. Armstrong's style of play. Rather, Parker's style came from multiple influences, from Coleman Hawkins to Lester Young to even classical composers like Arnold Schoenberg (Bird loved his classical music records). But all in all, he made that distinct style - signature Bird licks, that hard yet sweet vibrato-less sound - his own. And more importantly, it wasn't just original for the sake of being original; it was actually some damn good music (as opposed to today's American Idol, which seeks musicians to make cover versions of pop songs 'their own', but usually at the cost of good music).

And imitators like Sonny Stitt and Cannonball Adderley only had to feel the wrath and burden of critics and fans who saw them as Parker imitators to realize they had to strike their own paths. They needed to figure out how to become their own players, and escape from the shadow of Parker.
It's all here, both posts, completely unedited. You never responded back because you really had no answer. Your whole "argument" was basically "blah blah blah...Kobe is a great player....because you dare to criticize him, you're a total Kobe hater....blah blah blah". I'm not even going to elaborate on my answer, since I'm going to assume that you have the modicum of reading comprehension skill to simply read my argument. C'mon....I even went through the trouble of reposting it, exclusively for your reading pleasure.

Heck, I even took apart your "jazz musician" comment like a vulture takes apart a carcass. Look....I'm not saying I know everything out there in the world. It's just that you picked two of the subjects that I actually do know something about, basketball and Jazz, and tried to "argue" with me about them: it was particularly egregious in the Jazz part of your "argument", since you obviously know nothing about the subject.

And how the hell did you equate "Kobe Hating" with "Laker Hating"? I don't hate the Lakers. Their snotty fans? Probably.......

Anyway...have you ever heard of logic or logos? Learn it, and try to use it the next time you attempt to make an argument.



As for the Finals:

Game 1
The Lakers totally dismantled the Magic in Game 1. Utterly and totally. Like I said in another forum: if they keep up that intensity, they would totally sweep the Magic.

It wasn't even close. The Lakers closed out hard on the Magic's three attempts. When the Magic three shooters pump-faked and went to drive, it felt like the long-armed Gasol, Ariza, and company were playing volleyball with the Magic's floaters and layups.

And they totally shackled Dwight Howard. Go Hack-a-Dwight on him. Yeah, there are times he makes both free-throws, and you wonder if it was a prudent to foul him. But I'm a huge believer in the "offensive and defensive rhythm and confidence" theory - basically, a team getting into their offensive set comfortably and consistently will be happier as a whole, and the effort will translate to both ends of the court. Once Howard keeps going to the line, that sucks away the opportunities and touches for Lewis, Turkoglu, Alston, etc. Not only does it prevent them from getting into a rhythm with their shooting and offensive game, it also prevents Howard from establishing his offensive game as well. He can't figure out what works against the defense, and thus, he shoots a lower percentage whenever the defense doesn't foul him.

Kobe had a hot game, and was on absolute fire in the Third quarter. BTW...remember when it seemed like JJ Redick 'stopped' Kobe in the 4th quarter? Kobe was basically still in to keep chucking it up until he hit 40, so his shot selection in the 4th was....questionable

Games 2-4

Why did I group these games together? They were either won by the Magic or were completely within their grasps.

Seriously....this series is much closer than the record indicates. And it's because of a few factors.

a) The Lakers' defense lost its Game 1 intensity and its Game 1 effectiveness. In Game 1, the Lakers did everything the Cavaliers were supposed to do on D, but didn't. Chalk one up for Mike Brown, who should get the Shaq-anointed nickname for Stan Van Gundy - "Master of Panic" - for completely falling apart and reacting to the Magic's offense instead of making the Magic play into the Cavs' D.

The Lakers wing defenders basically left the Magic three shooters wide open in Game 3. The Magic, however, only took 14 three attempts that game, all good looks. But they took better shots from inside the arc and cashed them in.

b) Kobe's shot selection...again, questionable. Yes, he was virtually unstoppable during the first quarter of Game 3 and a couple of other times. But there's a reason why his shooting has been 16-34, 10-22, 11-25, 11-31. Seriously...his field goal percentage has been getting steadily worse with each game. And you can see it: sometimes, he's just forcing up jump shots against multiple defenders.

My argument has always been that he only needs to be a threat to score. Kobe Bean Bryant undeniably and indisputably gets that respect, but he needs to make defenses pay for double teaming him by passing to the open man, say, Pau Gasol.



So why is Orlando losing this series so far?

a) Dwight Howard has been utterly neutralized. Sure, he gets his boards and blocks, and he's only scoring 5 fewer points per game. But it's the Finals, and the Magic needed him to be Superman.

His FG% has been subpar, his FT% has been par for him (which is still not good, especially given the number of attempts he takes), and his defense hasn't been that great. Of course, I've never thought of him as a great one-on-one post defender to begin with.

b) The Magic have zero, I repeat, zero answers for Pau Gasol. He's shooting nearly 60%, no sweat. His main defender has been Rashard Lewis....Lewis is way too small and weak to play someone as big and skilled as Pau is. I think I remembered seeing Howard switched onto Pau a couple of times, to not so good results for the Magic. You have to remember that Pau and his brother Marc took turns abusing Howard's defense during the Gold Medal game.

c) The rest of the Lakers have been steady, and they know their roles well. Credit goes to Phil Jackson's zen moxie and great coaching.

The rest of the Magic, outside of Turkoglu, Lewis, and Howard, don't know their roles so well because their playing time keep getting kicked around. Discredit goes to Stan Van Gundy, for screwing up what worked against Cleveland in Game 1 of the Finals, and never quite figuring out how to keep everyone productive.

d) Free throw shooting. Especially, in Game 2 and Game 4. 'Nuff said.



It's easy to say the Lakers are going to pull away with the series. I don't doubt that they will win it all. I'm just saying that all of the last three games could have very easily been won by the Magic. A good chunk of this is because the Lakers have gone back to their cruise-control, on-again, off-again regiment in the regular season and the other playoff series rather than simply annihilating the Magic like they did in Game 1. IMO, this series should have been over by now, but the Lakers simply became too complacent.

If they could win that way, great! I'm just repeating the same things that have exasperated Laker fans this whole season.

Last edited by urban analysis therapist; 06-14-2009 at 12:30 AM..
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Old 06-14-2009, 07:52 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
3,439 posts, read 3,181,353 times
Reputation: 2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by urban analysis therapist View Post
Me? I've been sidetracked and haven't been involved with the NBA much, besides watching the Finals. I've caught all of the first three games, but only some of the last game. In a related note, I have been playing more basketball lately.

So anyway.....here's my question. Where the hell were you in the "Kobe Hater" thread after I completely and utterly dismantled your incoherent and illogical babble that was supposed to be your "argument"? Here....I'll refresh your memory:



And here's my rebuttal:



It's all here, both posts, completely unedited. You never responded back because you really had no answer. Your whole "argument" was basically "blah blah blah...Kobe is a great player....because you dare to criticize him, you're a total Kobe hater....blah blah blah". I'm not even going to elaborate on my answer, since I'm going to assume that you have the modicum of reading comprehension skill to simply read my argument. C'mon....I even went through the trouble of reposting it, exclusively for your reading pleasure.

Heck, I even took apart your "jazz musician" comment like a vulture takes apart a carcass. Look....I'm not saying I know everything out there in the world. It's just that you picked two of the subjects that I actually do know something about, basketball and Jazz, and tried to "argue" with me about them: it was particularly egregious in the Jazz part of your "argument", since you obviously know nothing about the subject.

And how the hell did you equate "Kobe Hating" with "Laker Hating"? I don't hate the Lakers. Their snotty fans? Probably.......

Anyway...have you ever heard of logic or logos? Learn it, and try to use it the next time you attempt to make an argument.



As for the Finals:

Game 1
The Lakers totally dismantled the Magic in Game 1. Utterly and totally. Like I said in another forum: if they keep up that intensity, they would totally sweep the Magic.

It wasn't even close. The Lakers closed out hard on the Magic's three attempts. When the Magic three shooters pump-faked and went to drive, it felt like the long-armed Gasol, Ariza, and company were playing volleyball with the Magic's floaters and layups.

And they totally shackled Dwight Howard. Go Hack-a-Dwight on him. Yeah, there are times he makes both free-throws, and you wonder if it was a prudent to foul him. But I'm a huge believer in the "offensive and defensive rhythm and confidence" theory - basically, a team getting into their offensive set comfortably and consistently will be happier as a whole, and the effort will translate to both ends of the court. Once Howard keeps going to the line, that sucks away the opportunities and touches for Lewis, Turkoglu, Alston, etc. Not only does it prevent them from getting into a rhythm with their shooting and offensive game, it also prevents Howard from establishing his offensive game as well. He can't figure out what works against the defense, and thus, he shoots a lower percentage whenever the defense doesn't foul him.

Kobe had a hot game, and was on absolute fire in the Third quarter. BTW...remember when it seemed like JJ Redick 'stopped' Kobe in the 4th quarter? Kobe was basically still in to keep chucking it up until he hit 40, so his shot selection in the 4th was....questionable

Games 2-4

Why did I group these games together? They were either won by the Magic or were completely within their grasps.

Seriously....this series is much closer than the record indicates. And it's because of a few factors.

a) The Lakers' defense lost its Game 1 intensity and its Game 1 effectiveness. In Game 1, the Lakers did everything the Cavaliers were supposed to do on D, but didn't. Chalk one up for Mike Brown, who should get the Shaq-anointed nickname for Stan Van Gundy - "Master of Panic" - for completely falling apart and reacting to the Magic's offense instead of making the Magic play into the Cavs' D.

The Lakers wing defenders basically left the Magic three shooters wide open in Game 3. The Magic, however, only took 14 three attempts that game, all good looks. But they took better shots from inside the arc and cashed them in.

b) Kobe's shot selection...again, questionable. Yes, he was virtually unstoppable during the first quarter of Game 3 and a couple of other times. But there's a reason why his shooting has been 16-34, 10-22, 11-25, 11-31. Seriously...his field goal percentage has been getting steadily worse with each game. And you can see it: sometimes, he's just forcing up jump shots against multiple defenders.

My argument has always been that he only needs to be a threat to score. Kobe Bean Bryant undeniably and indisputably gets that respect, but he needs to make defenses pay for double teaming him by passing to the open man, say, Pau Gasol.



So why is Orlando losing this series so far?

a) Dwight Howard has been utterly neutralized. Sure, he gets his boards and blocks, and he's only scoring 5 fewer points per game. But it's the Finals, and the Magic needed him to be Superman.

His FG% has been subpar, his FT% has been par for him (which is still not good, especially given the number of attempts he takes), and his defense hasn't been that great. Of course, I've never thought of him as a great one-on-one post defender to begin with.

b) The Magic have zero, I repeat, zero answers for Pau Gasol. He's shooting nearly 60%, no sweat. His main defender has been Rashard Lewis....Lewis is way too small and weak to play someone as big and skilled as Pau is. I think I remembered seeing Howard switched onto Pau a couple of times, to not so good results for the Magic. You have to remember that Pau and his brother Marc took turns abusing Howard's defense during the Gold Medal game.

c) The rest of the Lakers have been steady, and they know their roles well. Credit goes to Phil Jackson's zen moxie and great coaching.

The rest of the Magic, outside of Turkoglu, Lewis, and Howard, don't know their roles so well because their playing time keep getting kicked around. Discredit goes to Stan Van Gundy, for screwing up what worked against Cleveland in Game 1 of the Finals, and never quite figuring out how to keep everyone productive.

d) Free throw shooting. Especially, in Game 2 and Game 4. 'Nuff said.



It's easy to say the Lakers are going to pull away with the series. I don't doubt that they will win it all. I'm just saying that all of the last three games could have very easily been won by the Magic. A good chunk of this is because the Lakers have gone back to their cruise-control, on-again, off-again regiment in the regular season and the other playoff series rather than simply annihilating the Magic like they did in Game 1. IMO, this series should have been over by now, but the Lakers simply became too complacent.

If they could win that way, great! I'm just repeating the same things that have exasperated Laker fans this whole season.
Reported.
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Old 06-14-2009, 04:58 PM
 
Location: The 719
8,187 posts, read 13,316,129 times
Reputation: 9617
If the Magic lose tonight, it won't matter how close the games are.

Scoreboard, scoreboard, scoreboard, and scoreboard. First team to 4 wins.
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Old 06-14-2009, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Planet Earth
6,091 posts, read 5,335,952 times
Reputation: 3597
C'mon Orlando, play some Defense...
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Old 06-14-2009, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Planet Earth
6,091 posts, read 5,335,952 times
Reputation: 3597
Put a fork in 'em. The Magic has gone, Orlando is done.
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Old 06-14-2009, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Planet Earth
6,091 posts, read 5,335,952 times
Reputation: 3597
Well at least one of NCSU's own will be getting a ring with Josh Powell. Too bad he couldn't get one with the Mavs in 2006.

Tough way to end the Magic's season, just as we were calling them the "tragic magic" too. One can only wonder what the series would have been like had they won game 2, and game 4 for that matter, perhaps "tragic magic" is appropiate then?.

Last edited by Canes2006Champs; 06-14-2009 at 10:15 PM..
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Old 06-14-2009, 09:38 PM
 
Location: The 719
8,187 posts, read 13,316,129 times
Reputation: 9617
Phil Jackson! 10 of the last 19 NBA Championships. Hmmm... Not too shabby.
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Old 06-14-2009, 09:47 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
3,439 posts, read 3,181,353 times
Reputation: 2121
One team had more experience than the other.

Despite people calling out the Lakers' flaws during the course of the playoffs, they showed everyone why they are the best team in the league and contain the league's BEST player in Kobe.

They are the BEST defensive team in the league, hands down.

This series was really over before it started.
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Old 06-14-2009, 10:09 PM
JL
 
Location: Houston, TX
6,352 posts, read 6,872,918 times
Reputation: 6364
Congrats to the Lakers. Clearly the best team. I can't wait till next season. The Rockets, barring any major injury, will make it to the Finals!!
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Old 06-14-2009, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Back home in Kaguawagpjpa.
1,992 posts, read 5,207,804 times
Reputation: 1020
Congrats to the Lakers and the Magic, and thier fans.

It is official: The Lakers are the team of this decade.

Funny thing is: Only THREE teams came out of the west this whole decade ( Lakers: 00, 01, 02, 04, 08, 09. Spurs: 03, 05, 07,. And the Mavs: 06. ) Where as the Nets and Pistons were to only two Eastern teams to repeat in the Finals ( Nets: 02, 03. Pistons. 04, 05 )

The West went 7-3 this decade in the Finals; with the Lakers winning 4, and the Spurs winning 3.

There were only two sweeps in the Finals this decade: The Lakers in 02 ( against the Nets) and the Spurs in 07 ( against the Cavs )

There was only one Finals series to go to a game 7; that was in 2005.

The Finals in 2006, was the only one NOT to feature either the Lakers or Spurs since 1998, and is the only one this decade that didn't feature these two teams.
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