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Not according to anyone else in this thread and CERTAINLY not based upon your inability to provide arguments stronger than "I played highschool basketball." (I'm sitting here chuckling out loud as I typed that. )
We can even parse the discussion into:
1) Did he deserve to win?
2) Is he the worst winner in modern history?
I'd say:
1) Yes, based upon the general idea of spreading the award around and the good record that Pheonix had around that time. But not twice.
2) Yes. His defense is often mentioned among the league worst. Dirk isn't great at D but mediocre puts him way above Nash.
P.S. The poster "Urban" is by far the most informed NBA poster I've seen in this or any other forum and he backs it up with data, logic and coherent thought. I'd suggest taking notes.
Thanks for the compliment Mathguy. I post here because you and many other posters here fuel my rants () while providing clear and excellent analysis of your own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy
2) The same rules changes that make Parker so tough are what helped Nash blossom as well.
3) The Suns players put up massive stats due to the run-and-gun "70's style basketball". Other teams loved to play them as it was a stat padding festival for all involved. (Hence why guys like Amare, Nash etc. looked SOOOOO good on paper)
No doubt about #2. The Suns would have more difficult scoring with a defender handchecking and breathing down Nash all the way down the floor.
But I'm not sure about your conclusions for #3. I don't think players look at 7SOL basketball as a stat-padding festival - rather, they simply love to play fast-paced, free-wheeling, fast-break basketball. They love to get out and run, break free from the tyranny that is half-court offensive sets, and throw down their oppressor's shackles as they fill the lane and throw down a dunk. IMO, that's why opponents are so easily lured into playing that way when they face the Suns - it's what comes most natural to them.
But disciplined teams know to stay away from 7SOL basketball, or at least stay away from it most of the time. Why? Well, the Suns know how to play that way the best, and they have perhaps the best PG to run it (other than Jason Kidd). So your team is pretty much doomed if you try to hang with the Suns that way, because they're going to better than you if you decide to play their way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy
Nash won 05-06 and 04-05.
The 04-05 Shaq adds 17 wins to Miami and the Laker's fall apart and fail to make the playoffs. But AT LEAST Pheonix had the best record in the league so to that extent I can *see* how Nash won. There is at least some logic that he was the leader on a team that had the best record in the league.
05-06 No idea how he Nash won. Kobe, Dirk and obviously Duncan just to name a few.
I think those MVP's were a reward for the run-and-gun style the NBA was promoting.
If you're a conspiracy theorist, then this theory appeals to you. As for me, yes - I can see some kernel of truth to it.
But it's a bit disingenuous to show how many wins Shaq added to the Heat in 04-05, and not mention how many wins Nash added to the Suns, no? Nash added 33 wins to that Suns team, almost twice as many as Shaq added. Shaq added 17 wins to a team that made the playoffs the previous season; Nash turned a Suns team that was in turmoil and missed the playoffs the previous season into a team with the best record in the NBA. Does that not count for something?
As for Nash's 05-06 MVP - I think it was due in large part to his keeping the team in title contention despite losing Stoudemire. This was the Stoudemire who averaged 37 PPG against the Spurs in the previous season's WCF. Nash deserved to win in 04-05, but you may argue, however, about whether he truly deserved to win in 05-06. I'm not sure myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy
2) Is he the worst winner in modern history?.....
......2) Yes. His defense is often mentioned among the league worst. Dirk isn't great at D but mediocre puts him way above Nash.
As I've stated before, I think team defense is far more important than any individual's defense when it comes to how effectively you can defend another team. And IMO, the Suns were actually underrated defenders rather than the defenseless gunners that they're reputation states they are.
Here's my take on why they lost in 2005 against the Spurs in the WCF - they lost because of their offense, not their defense. First - they didn't have Joe Johnson for a couple of games, and he wasn't 100% when he did play. Second - Shawn Marion was awful that series. Awful.
The Suns lost by an average margin of about 6 PPG. Marion averaged about 19 PPG that season, 18 PPG in the the playoffs. He averaged less than 8 PPG against the Spurs. That means the Suns lost somewhere between 6-11 points in production from him - those 6 points would be if he were playing only mediocre basketball, averaging about 14 PPG. But he wasn't mediocre - he was flat out awful as the Spurs shut down his game completely. He needed to step up his game when Joe Johnson sat out; he didn't. Jimmy Jackson did a serviceable job, but wasn't a consistent enough contributor to fill in for that role. Which is why it was so important for Marion to continue his contributions, but he laid an egg instead.
As for the rest of the Suns' offense - I remember finally being able to show my father, who didn't have access to cable TV, what the Suns were all about when ABC hosted Game 1 of the 2005 WCF. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to show him that offense - the Spurs were way too disciplined to allow the Suns to run unimpeded, and they forced the Suns into playing half-court basketball, albeit at a fast pace.
That's pretty much what it comes down to. In the playoffs, as the intensity of the games increases, good teams hunker down their defense and refuse to let the other team dictate the pace and style-of-play of the game. The 7SOL offense is an awesome system during the regular season, when games are less intense, but it loses its potency in the playoffs when the other team refuses to let you use it properly. That's why unless the complement the system with a truly effective half-court game, they will probably never be able to become a true title contender. They may be a better team than they were last season, but it's pretty clear their title hopes have already sailed away (unless they can cobble together a Celtics-like KG and Ray Allen deal).
As for your original question - I'll cop out and simply say he wasn't the best MVP in recent history.
Not according to anyone else in this thread and CERTAINLY not based upon your inability to provide arguments stronger than "I played highschool basketball." (I'm sitting here chuckling out loud as I typed that. )
We can even parse the discussion into:
1) Did he deserve to win?
2) Is he the worst winner in modern history?
I'd say:
1) Yes, based upon the general idea of spreading the award around and the good record that Pheonix had around that time. But not twice.
2) Yes. His defense is often mentioned among the league worst. Dirk isn't great at D but mediocre puts him way above Nash.
P.S. The poster "Urban" is by far the most informed NBA poster I've seen in this or any other forum and he backs it up with data, logic and coherent thought. I'd suggest taking notes.
My arguement for Nash is simply that he is the best playmaker in the league and has advanced his team farther than any other team with a similar level of talent. My playing high school ball wasn't my arguement - it is just stating a fact that I at least know something about actually playing. Where did YOU play - local school yard? Chuckle, chuckle.
My arguement for Nash is simply that he is the best playmaker in the league and has advanced his team farther than any other team with a similar level of talent. My playing high school ball wasn't my arguement - it is just stating a fact that I at least know something about actually playing. Where did YOU play - local school yard? Chuckle, chuckle.
The man, the myth, the legend.
I may not agree with Urban, Ludachris, Black Jack etc. 100% of the time but I respect what they have to say because they back it up. In fact, I am USUALLY proven wrong when I argue with Urban....lol.
See, here on our planet this is an anonymous message board. None of us can prove anything and must rely upon our written word to carry the weight of our arguments.
This is why I mentioned that IRL I'm Michael Jordan and frankly it's moot to say that I played ball never, schoolyard, Div 2 or *gasp* even the pinnacle....high school basketball for Polk High for obvious reasons.
I just wanted to thoroughly explain this to you because I feel a little bad that everyone here is laughing at you and it being the Holidays and all.
I may not agree with Urban, Ludachris, Black Jack etc. 100% of the time but I respect what they have to say because they back it up. In fact, I am USUALLY proven wrong when I argue with Urban....lol.
See, here on our planet this is an anonymous message board. None of us can prove anything and must rely upon our written word to carry the weight of our arguments.
This is why I mentioned that IRL I'm Michael Jordan and frankly it's moot to say that I played ball never, schoolyard, Div 2 or *gasp* even the pinnacle....high school basketball for Polk High for obvious reasons.
I just wanted to thoroughly explain this to you because I feel a little bad that everyone here is laughing at you and it being the Holidays and all.
Ho Ho Ho, Ho.
'laughing at me'? Check yourself bud - an real armchair athelete who makes disparaging remarks about one of the greatist point guards to play in the NBA, and you probably didn't even play in a pickup game - ho, ho ho!
'laughing at me'? Check yourself bud - an real armchair athelete who makes disparaging remarks about one of the greatist point guards to play in the NBA, and you probably didn't even play in a pickup game - ho, ho ho!
See, my arguments are based in verifiable facts, statistics etc. while you claim some ridiculous stuff that is also unverifiable. How convenient.
P.S. I last played 3 days ago and play a couple times a week...but it's unverifiable so I could be Michael Jordan or Stephen Hawking....but that point is lost on you.
My arguement for Nash is simply that he is the best playmaker in the league and has advanced his team farther than any other team with a similar level of talent. !
Give me a break. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. All of Nash's teams he has played on have been stacked. Both Dallas and Phoneix. And how many rings does he have? All Nash has accomplished is win an MVP that he clearly didn't deserve. Do you get a trophy for losing in the WCF. I don't think so.
Dirk and the Mavericks really fell apart after he left.
I played high school basketball too, so obviously everyone should bow down and take what I saw as gospel . Did your team have to schedule games with CYO teams to get wins, I'm guessing they did if they let you on the team. This entire exhange of yours is a complete joke.
I read somewhere that he is broke. He blew 154 million he earned during his 'playing days'. Also said he had a posse of almost 50 folks. Ha Ha.
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)
I post here because you and many other posters here fuel my rants (
) while providing clear and excellent analysis of your own. 
