Unpermitted Cabin on Big Island? (homeowners insurance, how much, new house)

[V-Mutt]

Originally Posted by Flame Angel

Ya, go outside and watch it burn to the ground. Sheesh!!!!!

Nice condescending post...

FYI, residential fire sprinkler systems are explicitly not designed to save the structure. They are life-protection systems that serve two purposes:

1. Function as an alerting device for building occupants
2. Temporarily inhibit the spread of flames and smoke to provide a window of time for occupants to escape the structure

Keep up the good work. You're building quite a record of highly opinionated, curiously uniformed posts.

[whtviper1]

Originally Posted by V-Mutt

Nice condescending post...


FYI, residential fire sprinkler systems are explicitly not designed to save the structure. They are life-protection systems that serve two purposes:

1. Function as an alerting device for building occupants
2. Temporarily inhibit the spread of flames and smoke to provide a window of time for occupants to escape the structure

Keep up the good work. You're building quite a record of highly opinionated, curiously uniformed posts.

Do people really think these aren't good ideas for NEW construction?

[.highnlite]

"Living off the grid" is just slang for being a bum who doesn't want to pay taxes or fees or comply with building codes.

That is not an accurate statement. Living off the grid means to have a home that is not part of the electrical grid. You can have a home in town that is off the grid, and it has nothing to do with permits, fees, or taxes. It is merely using alternative energy sources.

[Flame Angel]

Originally Posted by V-Mutt

Nice condescending post...

FYI, residential fire sprinkler systems are explicitly not designed to save the structure. They are life-protection systems that serve two purposes:

1. Function as an alerting device for building occupants
2. Temporarily inhibit the spread of flames and smoke to provide a window of time for occupants to escape the structure

Keep up the good work. You're building quite a record of highly opinionated, curiously uniformed posts.

I hold a Masters Degree (MS) in a field that contains fire protection. I can tell you from that education, as well as other sources such as the Home Fire Sprinkler Association, that you are wrong.

You are rapidly gaining a reputation for being wrong. Might want to fix that.

[Flame Angel]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

That is not an accurate statement. Living off the grid means to have a home that is not part of the electrical grid. You can have a home in town that is off the grid, and it has nothing to do with permits, fees, or taxes. It is merely using alternative energy sources.

True, that is the literal meaning of "off the grid". You don't use commercial electricity delivered by the electrical grid.

However, as is often the case, there is a broader, less-literal meaning of the term that implies there is a disconnect from more than just the electrical grid, but much of society as well.

I would suspect that the latter meaning is the one intended more often than the first when using the term off the grid.

[V-Mutt]

Originally Posted by whtviper1

Do people really think these aren't good ideas for NEW construction?

Not at all, I personally think they are a great idea. I have included them in the last 4 homes I had built, but cost really wasn't a primary consideration and they were required by local code anyway.

Originally Posted by Flame Angel

I hold a Masters Degree (MS) in a field that contains fire protection. I can tell you from that education, as well as other sources such as the Home Fire Sprinkler Association, that you are wrong.

You are rapidly gaining a reputation for being wrong. Might want to fix that.

Well, if we're going to play the mine is bigger game, I also have graduate degrees but they are in fields which required the discipline to thoroughly research and learn a subject as well as the critical thinking abilities to properly contextualize my knowledge before spouting-off information as if it is fact-based. The Home Fire Sprinkler Association sounds like a trade group or advocacy group... likely not the most objective source of information.

If truly interested in the rationale for these systems, read the specifications for them in the national and uniform building code texts. The local building codes have generally adopted these specifications verbatim with minimal revisions. They are life protections systems. If they incidentally reduce property damage, that's a great collateral benefit. The requirement for a full fire suppression/extinguishing system would be too expensive to implement in a residential setting.

As for "gaining a reputation for being wrong", it appears that is just another example where you're not adequately distinguishing your opinion from fact. As long as that "reputation" exists solely in your mind, I'm OK with it.

[.highnlite]

Originally Posted by Flame Angel

True, that is the literal meaning of "off the grid". You don't use commercial electricity delivered by the electrical grid.

However, as is often the case, there is a broader, less-literal meaning of the term that implies there is a disconnect from more than just the electrical grid, but much of society as well.

I would suspect that the latter meaning is the one intended more often than the first when using the term off the grid.

Doubt it. Having lived off the grid for many years, and well connected with off the grid people. I know of no one who refers to unpermitted dwellings as "off the grid"
On the contrary, every non permitted residence I have seen in the past 20 years was indeed hooked up to the grid.

I lived for nearly 40 years in an isolated northern California valley where there was no grid, all homes were alternative. Some were permitted homes, some were not. When the power company decided to run power into the valley, people hooked up. If they did not have a permitted home, they got a power permit for a "well pump" that allowed the power company to run lines to the property, and from the well it was an easy jump to run wiring to the house. The power company did not care, more juice used, more income for them.

[Dreaming of Hawaii]

There are plenty of people in my area of the Big Island who are living "off the grid". It is an accepted way of life for many people in the rural areas of the BI. We live in a rural area because we like the slower pace of life, but we certainly aren't running away from anything, except hustle and bustle (it's an hour to the nearest traffic signal).

I think the term generally means that you are not hooked up to the electric company grid system. In Ocean View there's a good reason for that -- the electric company has not installed electricity to the entire 10,000 lots in the subdivision. So you can have a permitted house, and you are responsible for providing electricity, whether through solar panels, wind turbines, generators, or whatever other creative way you can think of. Some friends of ours paid to bring electricity to their house; I think it was a couple thousand dollars for each power pole that the electric company installed.

Additionally, every lot in Ocean View is off of the "water grid" too, because there is no county water supplied to that subdivision. Again, there are lots of really nice houses built with building permits, they just get their water through a catchment system rather than through lines in or on the ground.

Let's try to keep this thread (and this forum) factual and not get into calling each other names.

[Flame Angel]

Originally Posted by .highnlite

Doubt it. Having lived off the grid for many years, and well connected with off the grid people. I know of no one who refers to unpermitted dwellings as "off the grid"
On the contrary, every non permitted residence I have seen in the past 20 years was indeed hooked up to the grid.

I lived for nearly 40 years in an isolated northern California valley where there was no grid, all homes were alternative. Some were permitted homes, some were not. When the power company decided to run power into the valley, people hooked up. If they did not have a permitted home, they got a power permit for a "well pump" that allowed the power company to run lines to the property, and from the well it was an easy jump to run wiring to the house. The power company did not care, more juice used, more income for them.

You didn't get what I said at all. I concurr that the formal meaning of the term is to live not connected to the electrical grid, but also that the term is also being used as a "slang" so to speak for people who live largely disconnected from society.

I said nothing about the term "off-the-grid" and whether there is a permit or not. You came up with that yourself.

[Flame Angel]

Originally Posted by V-Mutt

Not at all, I personally think they are a great idea. I have included them in the last 4 homes I had built, but cost really wasn't a primary consideration and they were required by local code anyway.



Well, if we're going to play the mine is bigger game, I also have graduate degrees but they are in fields which required the discipline to thoroughly research and learn a subject as well as the critical thinking abilities to properly contextualize my knowledge before spouting-off information as if it is fact-based. The Home Fire Sprinkler Association sounds like a trade group or advocacy group... likely not the most objective source of information.

If truly interested in the rationale for these systems, read the specifications for them in the national and uniform building code texts. The local building codes have generally adopted these specifications verbatim with minimal revisions. They are life protections systems. If they incidentally reduce property damage, that's a great collateral benefit. The requirement for a full fire suppression/extinguishing system would be too expensive to implement in a residential setting.

As for "gaining a reputation for being wrong", it appears that is just another example where you're not adequately distinguishing your opinion from fact. As long as that "reputation" exists solely in your mind, I'm OK with it.

Having studied fire safety, fire prevention, fire prevention systems etc. formally at University as part of a MS in Safety, I am intimately familiar with their purposes and operation, as well as the various permutations including wet-pipe, dry-pipe, quick-acting valves etc.

Sprinklers, put out fires, Most do so by having a head or heads in the vicinity of the fire, and activated by the heat of the fire, release water onto the fire from the overhead sprinkler heads. In most cases, a single head will put out a small fire completely. They are amazing things.

IF you are going to continue to install them (assuming you are being honest about your previous experience, you should come up to speed on them.