Schools are "bad"? (public schools, moving to, teachers)

[Tappan Zee]

I think how your child is educated always starts with the parents, no matter how great the school is, if the parents give littel effort in stressing school and making sure their kids learn their lessons and be proactive with their child's education, then it doesn't matter how great the school system is. The child may still not receive the best education.

The students may get by and learn because the system is so structured for learning, but maybe not to their fullest potential, which is disappointing.

Having said that, how much money does the state of Hawaii actually put in their school system? I don't believe in wasteful taxes and spending, but we do need some adequate form of taxes to fund our public school systems. I'm not familiar with how Hawaii allocates their taxes, but just looking at the property taxes, and if the department of education in Hawaii is funded with property taxes then, it's no wonder the school system is lagging behind the school systems on the mainland, which have their own problems as well.

[OpenD]

Originally Posted by MickeyE

... I've felt for a long time that the "push" for everyone to get a college education is bad.

I don't know anyone saying that. But yes, there is a push for kids to get more than just a basic high-school education, because it's becoming harder and harder to make a living without one.

Originally Posted by MickeyE

Not everyone wants to go to college, but if they don't they are considered second class citizens and looked down on. How many "college educated" mechanics, carpenters, plumbers, etc. are there?

Actually, quite a few, because doing anything more than the most basic business today requires it. Even farmers. I think you're making the very, very common mistake of confusing college education and job training. One of the most basic purposes of a college education, especially what we now call a "liberal arts" education was originally to teach a person how to think critically and communicate clearly, to understand history and literature and art, etc. and to help select a career to go into. Then after you had your education under your hat, you would begin to learn a business or a trade. This concept has long since been degraded, with people today considering college to be a kind of white collar trade school that should render them immediately employable after graduation. Wrong. It's training to allow them to LEARN a job.

Originally Posted by MickeyE

How about tech schools, apprentice programs and on-the-job training? Where do we get the "blue collar" workers? And where would most "college educated" people be if there were no "blue collar service job, low-skilled job or manual labor job" people?

All of these can be worthwhile if students work hard to learn what there is to be learned, AND if they're lucky enough to choose a trade which actually has jobs available and continues to do so. The big problem is that on average, that career they train hard for will last less than 10 years, because our culture is changing so rapidly. Half of the jobs listed by the Labor Department today didn't even exist when I was born. You want to be a good auto mechanic today? You'll need to study electronics and be good with computers. Ditto all but the most basic "unskilled" positions.

Originally Posted by MickeyE

Sometime look around and see how many items are "made in America", and how many are imported.

Yes, and at least part of that is because foreign students are much more highly motivated to get a good education than Americans are. I recently read a breakdown of the costs to build an iPhone (under $30) and the profit accruing to Apple from each sale ($300), along with an estimate of how much more it would cost to build the iPhone in the US (under $10). So if Apple were willing to lower their profit less than $10, the iPhone could be "Made in America?" No, not really, because to recruit the number of engineers needed just to supervise the unskilled and semi-skilled workers to do the complex work was estimated to take 6 - 12 months, whereas in China they can hire that many engineers in a week. Because they value education highly there.

Ultimately, the desire to learn has to come from the parents, and the desire to have better schools as well.

[Joliefille]

Not to mention the huge nepotism problem in all of Hawaii's government offices. DOE or DOT. Doesnt matter. People will proudly proclaim that its connections or relationship that help in getting hired. Where is the focus of hiring the best qualified worker? You find people would rather hire their retarded 2nd cousins 3rd wife than do a legitimate search for the best qualified applicant.

[lauleahere&there]

I'm a retired educator and have volunteered in the Moloka'i schools for a few years. I it's hard to speculate on the entire family dynamic in education, but here's what I observe. Nutrition is dire from pre-natal to adults. Molokaians are very good at subsistence hunting and gathering, but some things require money, like adequate medical and dental care. I do see a lack of pressure from parents regarding educational standards, but it is not necessarily because they don't care, rather, because they themselves are isolated and poorly educated, they are unaware of how far behind their kids are compared to their counterparts world-wide.

One problem among many is the short length of the school day. Having recently graduated a child, the spouse and I sat down and calculated that Moloka'i kids graduate high-school with a year and a half less education than the kids in our former school district.

Add to that a high number of special-needs kids (due to fetal exposure to intoxicants, malnutrition, and other factors) and standards that seem to cater to the slowest kids, and it's no surprise that that the test scores are so low.

I had the opportunity to help evaluate senior projects--a capstone project if you will--chosen by the students in their field of interest. What I saw was functional illiteracy, the inability to define a project and follow through, and a lack of knowledge of basic research techniques. And yet, they passed. That is a failure not only of the family to demand more, but of a system that seems oblivious to the problem.

I am not one who thinks every person needs a college education. But in this day and age, kids need to be equipped with the best we can give them through high school or they will simply not have what they need to thrive in the world. I'm all for a simple life, but poverty should not be your only choice.

[CyberCity]

You find people would rather hire their retarded ....

Edit: I keep editing my posting, trying to express in a polite way that using that phrase in .... well... insensitive (to be gentle).

[jentwentynine]

Would you say Molokai has special circumstances? Different from say the Big Island? Or Maui?

[FallenIntoGreatness]

Originally Posted by CyberCity

Edit: I keep editing my posting, trying to express in a polite way that using that phrase in .... well... insensitive (to be gentle).

The correct term is intellectually disabled now. The rest of the world is trying to throw out the r-word because it no longer means someone with a disability rather someone behaving in a inappropriately foolish manner. However, some places still throw it around. You still see IEPs with EMR on them, I still hear it everyday in casual conversation, but it is nice that you tried to make the statement more polite.

I suppose the nice way of phrasing would be: They would rather hire their cousin's neighbor's intellectually disabled brother than take a chance on a well educated stranger. It is not what you know, it is WHO you know.

With that knowledge many kids are more concerned about how others see them and having friends than their grades. Makes sense in a way if friends can equal jobs and grades don't seem to offer any tangible reward; why would you care about grades?

[mdand3boys]

Originally Posted by Tappan Zee

...Having said that, how much money does the state of Hawaii actually put in their school system? I don't believe in wasteful taxes and spending, but we do need some adequate form of taxes to fund our public school systems. I'm not familiar with how Hawaii allocates their taxes, but just looking at the property taxes, and if the department of education in Hawaii is funded with property taxes then, it's no wonder the school system is lagging behind the school systems on the mainland, which have their own problems as well.

Hawaii has but one school district and funds come from the state's general fund.

The school system actually receives plenty of money - the problem is in the administration. The number of administrators (about everyone but teachers) has gone up considerably over the last ten years, despite a reduced number of students!

The Hawaii Dept of Education also funds charter schools (who are counted in the public school enrollment numbers) but gives charter schools only 50% of the per-pupil amount they allocate to the rest of the public schools! Yet, somehow, the charter schools seem to do a better job educating students...

Now you may also ask, "How is the number of students attending the public schools dropping, when the population is growing?"

People are pulling their children out of public schools and enrolling them in private schools, whose enrollments have gone way up.

[lauleahere&there]

Originally Posted by jentwentynine

Would you say Molokai has special circumstances? Different from say the Big Island? Or Maui?

It's hard to say for certain, because I haven't spent any time in the schools on BI or Maui. Certainly Molokai is smaller and poorer than the other two. But there are some constants, for example, the State's willingness to further reduce time in the classroom with Furlough Fridays--time those kids will never get back--affected all of the islands. Issues of poverty and drug abuse are not limited to Moloka'i either. A study published within the last year, conducted on the BI, showed that 50% of babies born during the study had pre-natal exposure to intoxicants, which can lead to learning disabilities and health and behavior problems. Those kinds of percentages will have an impact on any classroom.

I expect that on Maui, more affluence leads to more and better choices in private, religious and charter schools, at least in some areas. I just don't know about the BI.

[CyberCity]

Originally Posted by lauleahere&there

A study published within the last year, conducted on the BI, showed that 50% of babies born during the study had pre-natal exposure to intoxicants, which can lead to learning disabilities and health and behavior problems.

I was doubtful of those high numbers, so I googled:

Exposed To Intoxicants

Nearly half of the children on the Big Island were exposed to intoxicating substances in the womb, according to a study of women over the past three years.

The study found that of the 2,200 babies delivered on the Big Island annually, nearly 1,100 were born exposed and 600 were likely affected by fetal alcohol spectrum disorders, said Sharon Bechler, a registered nurse and Hawaii director for Children's Research Triangle.

The not-for-profit group surveyed 2,300 women across the Big Island surveyed over the past three years and found that 1,158 admitted to drinking alcohol or other substance abuse while pregnant, West Hawaii Today reported. There is no known safe amount of alcohol to consume while pregnant.

Wow!! And look at the number that are "likely affected by fetal alcohol spectrum disorders" .... about 25%!