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Unread 09-09-2007, 09:57 PM
 
6 posts, read 38,647 times
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Default Birmingham Southside crime

There are several threads where people are suggesting Southside as a good place to live especially for those who are single, and working downtown, going to school at UAB etc. However, I've been hearing stuff about an increase in crime, armed muggings, car/home break ins in Southside. I caught the story on the news a few days ago (maybe Sept 5th) about Southside crime. Even visited the Myspace website dedicated to victims of birmingham crime. I'm looking at a few houses in southside, however these stories have me a little concerned.

Anyone care to comment on this? Is it really becoming that bad?
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Unread 09-10-2007, 08:48 AM
 
537 posts, read 1,115,849 times
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Birmingham as a whole is a very high crime city (22nd in the U.S. in violent crime, 4th overall in homicide rate). Southside is actually one of the safest parts of town to be in. Even if Southside does have a high crime rate, it's nothing compared to what goes on on the west, north, and east sides.
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Unread 09-12-2007, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Historic Norwood
28 posts, read 85,530 times
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It's important to know what is going on in the 4 to 5 blocks around where you will be living. Trying to characterize whole quadrants of the city (South, North, East, West, Downtown) as either good or bad will end up having you live in Alabaster (one of the 30 minute out,mind numbing suburbs.. If you can talk to people who live on the blocks where you're looking to move to see what's happening then you'll see what is happening with the small group of criminals who seem to work an area until they get caught or move on to other places. There are no 100% good or bad areas.

I live in Norwood (and if you'll search for posts from historicbessemer you'll see a similar story to mine), a neigborhood of old mansions and craftmans on the "eternally bad" northside, if you talk to Bham natives. I am very active in the neigborhood and have met two people who have been broken into while living in their house in the last 4 years. Now going back 7 or 8 years ago there were a lot more break ins in the area from what I've gathered. In that same 4 years I've met 4 or 5 people who live on the southside who have been broken into. Recently I've been wondering if what is happening is that the criminals are going after the more affluent areas b/c I've been hearing about strings of breakins in Homewood and Hoover too.
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Unread 09-13-2007, 06:57 AM
 
Location: Between the cracks in the sidewalk
125 posts
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Quote:
I live in Norwood (and if you'll search for posts from historicbessemer you'll see a similar story to mine), a neigborhood of old mansions and craftmans on the "eternally bad" northside, if you talk to Bham natives
urbups (and other B'hamians),

Your post regarding Norwood has piqued has my interest in many respects.

I call myself a native of Birmingham, though technically speaking I was raised in the community of Mountain Brook. I will not delve into the peculiarly pretentious duality of how Mountain Brook views itself on one hand as the most tony and hallowed grounds of the city and on the other hand as an elite and cloistered "tiny kingdom," tucked away (and protected) by the natural ramparts of Red Mountain -- a wholly different world divorced from the post-industrial concrete jungle, predominantly black population, working class ethos, and boho culture composing the city of B'ham for many decades now.

Suffice to say, it is indicative of a privileged and sheltered Mountain Brook rearing that one come to know it's mother city's nuances in such skewed detail and from such great distance, through a tainted lens: always a second-hand, kaleidoscope perspective. In other words, things "from the wrong side of the tracks" are often heard and discussed, read about in the local papers and further discussed, witnessed by a friend of a friend's yardman, but rarely ever witnessed or experienced in the first person. What goes on "on the other side" becomes the stuff of urban lore -- Fear the Boogeymen! More about this presently...

But first, I am quite interested to know a little more about Norwood (specifically the "Historic Norwood" area, in which you are evidently playing a vital role in gentrifying). What are its existing 'boundaries'? What is the current demographic composition in your neighborhood-at-large, in your immediate neighborhood? What services do you utilize (grocery store, pharmacy, dry cleaning, banks, etc.)? Do you find yourself patronizing businesses Downtown and on the Southside frequently? Do you have any interesting photos to share about the revitalization movement (I personally have not been back to the Ham in quite a while, and live on the West Coast)? What public schools currently serve this area? -- Is private school perchance becoming more en vogue there?

Though I spent my first 18 years of life in B'ham, and a few additional years in my late 20s (I am currently 35), I somehow was never privvy to the "goings on" in Norwood and that side of town. Nor on many other "wrong sides of town" (Ensley, Bush Blvd., Woodlawn, Tuscaloosa Ave./Arlington come to mind, though we Brookies did frequent Rickwood and Legion Field for ballgames, but got the hell in & out of Dodge in brisk fashion -- Fear the Boogeymen!)

In fact, I don't believe I ever set foot (or tire) in Norwood per se, save for the Carraway campus a couple of times in my life. We were strongly discouraged from gracing the grounds of that entire swath of city known colloquially as "North Birmingham" (aka "N----r Town") and you are calling "The North Side."

We were told horror stories of rampant criminal activity, gangs, rape, incest, homicide, drugs, abject poverty, "system-draining" welfare queens, and grand theft. No home was unaffected, we were told. And "they had brought it on themselves, for acting like such filthy animals all these years, for sucking up all our tax money... I'm sick of working to pay their bills AND mine! If they kill each other off, it's their own fault."

Our fathers' generation were wont to speak ineloquently of the North B'ham residents; with a gleam in their gin-soaked eyes and a little tug on the pleated khakis, they would bellow, "those porch monkeys lay in wait for good guys driving to the Civic Center to make a wrong turn and get lost in their perilous ghetto like in 'Bonfire of the Vanities.'"

Sad but true, I vividly remember some discussion in the '80s whereby some powerful and influential businessmen were looking into underwriting, constructing, and operating a Wild Animal Park in the Norwood area as part of a Civic Center adjunct, for the purposes of boosting tourism, and also to enhance the "entertainment options" for the general citizenry (after paying the city off and razing the area of its many homes and buildings). Their initial plans modeled this park on an Australian Outback experience: replete with kangaroos, wombats, and wallabies. I kid you not. They hee-hawed at the absurd comedy of having huge giraffes running around sticking their heads out over the adjacent neighbors' homes: "I'd hate to be in one of dem homes lef' standing thar!" I'll never forget a certain heavy-set good ole boy blue-blooded Country Clubber guffawing at the irony, "We'll rid that North Birmingham Zoo of its beastly wild animals and replace it with [i]REAL[i] wild animals -- ones we can pet and feed and keep behind a chain-link fence! -- ones that will MAKE us money!!!" This project never came to pass, needless to say.

(As to where the displaced Norwood citizens would have been relocated... Crazy, but there was a parallel discussion regarding the possible flooding out of some choice valleys north of the airport and Tarrant City, the building an Alabama Power-esque lock & dam such as the one at Lake Martin, the cultivating of a beautiful, prisitine lakefront real estate, the subsequent divvying out of prime parcels to "friends of the project," and the placing of former Norwoodians on the "wrong side" of the lake as a convenient built-in working class community for the purposes of constructing and upkeeping the lakefront development.)

North B'ham was often a topic du jour over society and holiday gatherings. The banter, absurd and loathsome as it was, was always morbidly intriguing to me -- especially the never-ending stream of new perjoratives spewn forth so eloquently between sips on a mint julip: "Afro Americans," "Lazy Boys in Lazyboys," "Missing Links," and... "substandards." About this last one, I recall asking "Exactly what are these poeple 'substandard' in?" Most frequent answer: "Everything."

Another party favorite was to witness the elder statesmen of Birmingham society (the descendents of the primary founders -- the ones with their names on major buildings and eponymous neighborhoods) decrying how their fair Downtown was so bustling and lively and dreamy in the Roaring 20s and through the war years. But then, "The blacks took over. It's gone to hell in a handcart since!"

My senile grandfather was driving around downtown one day, somehow lost his way, and got lost deep in the heart of North B'ham (the same way our fathers had warned us not to do). When he finally regained his octogenarian bearings and returned home safely (probably by way of helpful directions lent by the residents), he was coherent enough to regale us with this: "There sho are a lotta n-----s with beepers down yawnder. They can't all be doctors!" My mother and father cackled and retold this knee-slapper over and over at cocktail parties. "N-----s... doctors... beepers...HA HA HA HA HA HAHAHAHEHEHE..."

Another buffoonish line I can't extricate from my head: Ineveitably, during an ominous Tornado Warning for Jefferson County, some stodgy Mountain Brook authority figure would arise and render this most emphatic and deadly serious remark in hopes of subduing the throngs of Little Lord Fauntleroys at school: "Tornados don't ever hit in the Tiny Kingdom. They head for places like West End, North Birmingham, Centerpoint, you know, THAT side of the mountain, where the homes are shanties!"

One final anecdote... Our maid drove over the mountain every other Monday morning to clean our posh Mountain Brook home top to bottom -- from toilets to chandeliers (back in those days maids were extremely common in upper-middle class homes, even middle class homes in the B'ham metro). She would normally arrive just before I would leave for school. "Martha" was her name, but we of course never called her that; I took my cue from my parents and called her "Mop." One day, I asked her why everyone called her this; she laughed it off, smiled a sardonic Aunt (I ain't) Jemima smile, and retorted, "I don't know, why don't you ask your father, he started it." Following up, I queried my father about this diminutive and he likened it to how everybody called me "Basketball Jones" -- I always had a basketball in my hands; she always had a MOP in hers! Made sense.

I hope y'all are not offended by my spinning these grotesque tales in this public forum, in this particular thread: I somehow became moved to unload them here and now, to play some sort of Flannery O'Birmingham and San Phleg-Faulkner -- it seemed to me somewhat relevant in that Norwood is now a discussion point and obviously a player in the gentrification scene of a city steeped in blighted neighborhoods, white flight/ black fright, and socio-racial tensions.

I also wanted to put all this out there and find out if anyone had any similar experiences in B'ham with regards to Norwood and its perception within the larger community of metro B'ham. I hope I garner some responses.

THE TRAGIC POSTSCRIPT is news every Birminghamian should know: that these same good ole boys remain in power in Mountain Brook and essentially control the metro at-large by way of their money and powerful influence. Their sons (not daughters, as is this a male chauvinist society from the word go) are a shade less racist, but will basically rise up through the ranks and perpetuate essentially the same regime.

For all the changes, diversity, and progress that are ongoing on the Southside, Downtown, and other locales in the city, don't ever forget where the bulk of the purse strings for the metro at-large are: in Mountain Brook, Forest Park, Redmont Park, places like Carlisle and Argyle Roads, and some gated enclaves peppered up and down the 280 corridor such as Greystone and Shoal Creek.

These people, I wouldn't term them hate-mongers: they really wouldn't hurt a fly, and some of their actual motives are quite noble indeed: to protect their families against degenracy and crime, serve their country, live a civilized life that values education and high culture, and practice self-reliance aka "every man for himself. But they are certainly practicing racists in the aristocratic sense of a couple of centuries past: they wish to subjugate as many low-income people as possible, keep the working class as subserviant and dependent upon their masters, and conserve wealth in the hands of the chosen few, their heir apparents, the homogenously like-minded. Keep it down home. We are talking about a very Old Guard -- older, deeper, and persistently tradition-centric in a largely icoloclastic milieu. Richard Scrushy could never gain entree into this Guard, if that tells you anything.

Birmingham: its race relations, power players, country clubs, old boy networks, sleazy politics, Protestantism and race, Protestantism and money, urban versus rural versus suburban dynamics, etc. So many story lines. In many ways the most stuck-in-the-past city I have ever seen up close, and I have lived in a few, travelled to many in this land. In many ways, a cruel city. But not the most cruel. These are all topics for another day.

Lastly, are there any prospects for gentrification in historic but largely blighted areas such as Ensley, Arlington, Woodlawn, East Lake, Avondale, etc.? What are the tensions? Where is the blowback? I am genuinely interested, morbidly fascinated in my hometown -- even today. But I would NEVER live there EVER again.

Thanks! - SP

Last edited by san phlegmatico; 09-13-2007 at 07:27 AM..
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Unread 09-13-2007, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Alabama!
4,879 posts, read 9,765,244 times
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Wow, San, you should write a book.
Roll Tide.
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Unread 09-13-2007, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Somewhere in northern Alabama
10,674 posts, read 22,278,904 times
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Sam, you write entertaining (if long) posts, and I must say that this one provides insight into your negative attitudes towards B'ham and Alabama. Your anecdotes provide a flavor of what life can be like within certain social circles. However, it seems to me that you didn't make much of an effort to explore outside of those circles as a kid.

My wife raised a family in Mountain Brook, and while the "good ol' boys" were doing their thing, another part of the community was highly involved in personal growth. There were a number of Catholics in the area that had issues with the dogma of the church, and started their own Church of the Transfiguration, which even back then was more progressive than most of the churches today. Look at the folks who attend the Unitarian and Unity churches and you'll find a surprising percentage of Brookies. Red Mountain School existed in part because of the patronage of Brookies. The school of fine arts had roots in that school. Some people use a bit of education to hold on to what they have, others use it to advantage to explore life. Not everyone in Mountain Brook fits your mold.

I have other startling news. The "horror stories of rampant criminal activity, gangs, rape, incest, homicide, drugs, abject poverty, "system-draining" welfare queens, and grand theft" weren't unique to Birmingham. They suffused the culture of the 50s and exist even through the present day. I heard those stories growing up in rural Vermont.

Having lived in the Miami area in the recent past, let me assure you that some of that type of stories you were told were based in fact. Birmingham hasn't yet, to my knowledge, come to the point that six year olds are shot dead playing in their yards because of drive-by shootings, or tourists killed because of inaccurate signage leading to the airport, but it does happen, and cautionary tales are part of the responsibility of parents.

To play devil's advocate, some of those "good ol' boys" may have been more on the right track than the rest of the country of the time. In retrospect, the dissolution of many poor families suffering through desegregation and the lack of employment by the fathers - due in large part to white community attitudes - was only made worse by Johnson's "Great Society," which forced mothers to stop living with the fathers of their children or starve, thus providing a generation of kids who constantly had the negative stereotype of the black male reinforced, and (purposely or co-incidentally?) were exposed to the diminishing the power of the black churches as family values were ripped assunder. Had welfare been handled differently, with work made available for fathers, and unwed mothers handled differently, the black community might have been able to grow with greater dignity and less of a reliance on the escape and available money that drugs provided. There was short-sightedness in abundance at the time, and the good ol' boys didn't have a lock on it.

You go on to say of the residents of Mountain Brook: "But they are certainly practicing racists in the aristocratic sense of a couple of centuries past: they wish to subjugate as many low-income people as possible, keep the working class as subserviant and dependent upon their masters, and conserve wealth in the hands of the chosen few, their heir apparents, the homogenously like-minded. Keep it down home."

Again, you provide a fascinating turn of phrase. With it, you are damning globalization, free-market economies, and a majority of the American people. Capitalism works best when there is economic disparity. The slaves of the 1800s have been replaced by the workers of empoverished countries. Those with money typically work to keep it. There is no shame in that. The providing of work to the "lowest of the low" can actually build their standard of living and prevent revolution, as opposed to allowing them to starve in quiet dignity or come under the power of some charismatic tyrant. Ramping up the emotionality of the injustices of life does little to correct them.

Since you brought the subject up... If you live in LA, do you live in the poorest area? If not, why not? Pontification can have more meaning from someone willing to "walk the walk" and not just "talk the talk." I don't think you could do it. My wife knows of a woman from Mountain Brook (yet another break of your mold) who did exactly that, and purposely moved from there into one of the most empoverished areas of Birmingham. Wanna know what happened? Let's just say that she wasn't embraced with open arms by that community. Her attempts at friendship were rebuffed. Her life was made so miserable that she was forced out within a year. Understand that just as much as Mountain Brook has a community, there can be a pecking order and community in areas of poverty. Yet you speak as though the ills of the city fall only on the shoulders of the men of Mountain Brook.

You rail against the problems that you saw growing up there. I posit that someone who lived on "the other side of the tracks" during that time could as easily do so about the injustices within their own local community, without even mentioning Mountain Brook.

In summary, to think that that one small area is the sole driving force of Birmingham shows as much inflation as the inflation of the people you wish to castigate.

PS. Does the name Mayor Arrington ring a bell?
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Unread 09-13-2007, 12:26 PM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
182 posts, read 591,453 times
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Wow, San Phlegmatico and HC, both posts were very interesting to read. I don't have anything to input as Birmingham is new to me but I enjoy reading such arguments on both sides.

Are either of you writers?
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Unread 09-13-2007, 12:53 PM
 
4,434 posts, read 6,377,734 times
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"we were told ..." Must have been rather engrained memories to be able to quote them years later.
I enjoy living in my gated 280 ghetto with wonderful and oh so mixed neighbors.

Socal2Bham - let me know when you plan your next expedition to John Deer Nurseries to work on your water feature. We could meet for coffee.
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Unread 09-13-2007, 04:26 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in northern Alabama
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A writer writes, so I guess I am a writer (but not as a profession). In cases like this, I think that understanding comes from examination, and I enjoy the examination created by a good debate. Sam makes some very valid points, and it was only when he started to generalize that he offered an opening for me to challenge his post. Neither of our posts are "correct," but both hopefully offer some insight, and build off each other.

FWIW, I'm not a fan of the Mountain Brook social structure that he examines, and I applaud his candid approach in relating his experience. I just have a repeating desire to poke holes in generalizations and stereotypes, as they can lead to lazy thinking. Many people who write for their own betterment appreciate a critique or counterpoint, and I hope Sam takes my post in this fashion.

BTW, I mis-spoke on the Church of the Transfiguration. That was actually an offshoot of the Episcopal Church, although it appealed to the disenfranchised of both the Catholic and Episcopal faiths. My wife also pointed out that many of the people who met at the Unitarian Church in the 1960s did so in secret for fear of the racist backlash, and that Crestline residents may have been more numerous on the forefront of change than the people from Mountain Brook.
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Unread 09-13-2007, 07:01 PM
 
537 posts, read 1,115,849 times
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Quote:
Having lived in the Miami area in the recent past, let me assure you that some of that type of stories you were told were based in fact. Birmingham hasn't yet, to my knowledge, come to the point that six year olds are shot dead playing in their yards because of drive-by shootings, or tourists killed because of inaccurate signage leading to the airport, but it does happen, and cautionary tales are part of the responsibility of parents.


Are you serious? Last time I was in Birmingham I heard about a baby not yet two years old shot dead in his living room in North Birmingham. Not to mention on the news that night was the trial of a man who shot and killed three people at a hotel near the airport. Not to mention the fact that Birmingham somehow manages to post a higher homicide rate than virtually every major city in the United States, including Miami, Los Angeles, New York, Philadelphia, Chicago, you name it. As a matter of fact the only three cities that have higher murder rates than Birmingham are Gary, IN, Detroit, and Flint, MI, in that order. Worst part about it is that violent crime is no longer a shock or a surprise to anybody in the city. But then again, i've heard from sociologists and criminal justice experts at UAB and other places throughout Birmingham that the city has always had a high amount of violent crime, even going back 100 + years ago (the city has always been a working class industrial city headed by a few "power players", people like Debardelaben, Bruno, etc). But in any case, you are sorely mistaken if you believe crime in Birmingham is not a serious problem. Yes I admit Miami is a scary place, I personally could never live there because of the crime situation there but then again Birmingham had more homicides in terms of raw numbers than all of Dade County, and that's really sad because the city of Birmingham has less than half the population of Dade County. And Birmingham is a city that leads the nation (if not the world) in terms of medical care, so even with world-class medical facilities, there are numerous deaths taking place on the streets of Birmingham that doctors just can't do anything about. Don't tell me Birmingham doesn't have a crime problem - growing up in the city in the early to mid 1990s I remember police, fire, and paramedics being on our block every week. I remember how people openly sold and used drugs (mostly crack but also some heroin and pills), I remember how gunshots became so common to me that by the time I reached puberty they no longer frightened me. I remember attending functions at Legion Field and hearing gunshots and watching hundreds, if not thousands, of people stampede in the opposite direction of the gunfire. That was then, and this is now - but in Birmingham there's little difference between then and now - I went back home for a funeral in February and met with relatives from New York who upon hearing about how bad much of the city was in terms of crime, said, "I thought those days were over". In New York, they are over for the most part. But we all joked about how you know that Alabama is "behind the times". Think crack and gangbanging went out in 1995? Think again. It's alive and well in "the Ham". I only left the city about 15 months ago, things have not changed much, if at all. Face it, Birmingham is a high crime city and I don't see that changing soon, because Birmingham is also a slow-changing city.



san: I wish you would write a book, and go on the Oprah show and promote it, and tell the world how ****ed up Birmingham still is. Some people (particularly whites) look at me crazy when I tell them that racism is alive and well, especially in Birmingham. In over 20 years of living in Birmingham, I can count on one hand the number of times i've been to Mountain Brook - reading your stories, (I have no doubt whatsoever they are true), I don't think I'll be planning a trip there soon.


Growing up in Birmingham, I lived in Collegeville (adjacent to and demographically identical to Norwood), West End, and Center Point. It does not surprise me one bit that those rich ****ers in Mountain Brook said and did all of those things - I'm just really glad that you posted on the Internet for everyone to see. Racism really irritates me, but perhaps the one thing that irritates me even more is that there are still people in this country (adults, mind you not children) who are still naive enough to think that racism died in the 1960s. I really wish you would write a book on this or something, your post was interesting - it wasn't just about racism, it was also about classism. It's not just about race, it's about economics - poor whites get screwed by the system in Birmingham too, just not nearly as bad as blacks I don't think. Birmingham is very much an old money, old guard type of city. That's one thing I hate about it. Now granted i live in Chicago too which is another example of an old guard city. Hell Chicago invented machine politics, which is really just a Chicago term for "good ol boy" system. It's still alive and well in the city, but at least there's more opportunity up here. Chicago has a solid black middle class (though there's plenty of poor blacks here as well). Birmingham seems to have a small (although growing) black middle class, but very few upper income blacks. And it seems that many blacks back home don't even aspire for wealth but are satisfied with working at Blue Cross Blue Shield or something. Not saying there's anything wrong with working at an insurance company - but the bottom line is that many people in Birmingham (especially in the black community unfortunately) lack ambition (other than rapping, selling drugs or playing sports). Other cities, not even big cities like Atlanta or Chicago but more similar-sized cities such as Charlotte, NC and Nashville, TN, have more black businesses than Birmingham does and more successful blacks who earn more money than what blacks earn in Birmingham. And let's not even bring up Birmingham's big brother to the east, Atlanta. They are MUCH better about that - as a matter of fact, the ambitious blacks who are in Birmingham eventually seem to wind up in Atlanta because it's almost like there's something in the very air itself that holds people back. The city is just way too "stuck in the past" as you say. It's very much regressive, not progressive, and as a young, ambitious black man myself I couldn't take it anymore. I don't even know if I want to remain in Chicago, sometimes I this city is a little bit too much like that here, but Chicago is light years ahead of Birmingham in that department. Stuff actually gets done up here. Birmingham, both in the white and black community, has a shuffle-our-feet attitude. Can't deal with it, my solution was to get the hell out of town.

Last edited by AQUEMINI331; 09-13-2007 at 07:20 PM..
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