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If I'm shopping for homes in Boise, and would rather live in a mud hut than anywhere that had an HOA, am I:
a) fine--lots of nice and not ancient homes don't have them, though they might have covenants?
b) going to have a tough time, and might have to compromise on other things, but it can be done?
c) screwed, and should either just rent or be reconciled to living in the country?
I am guessing it's b). I'm thinking Idaho's libertarian streak banged head-on into the development wave and the development wave won more often than not, but not without the heavy casualties that the whole HOA concept richly deserves. However, I'm also thinking that people who live there know better than I do.
Brought up my old neighborhood before, but check out the area behind HP, south of Chinden. Most of the homes were built in the 80's. So the neighborhoods still look fairly new, you get mature vegetation and best of all no HOA. I was an Urban Planning major in college and did my senior thesis on HOA's and CC&R's. Vowed in college to never live in a neighborhood with them.
In Boise, many neighborhoods don't have HOAs, particularly in older neighborhoods. Most newer subdivisions do have HOAs. Mostly the same is true in Meridian, but so much of the development in Meridian is newer, it's harder to avoid them. You will not find new construction outside of an HOA unless you buy a newer home that is essentially out in the country and those are few and far between.
HOA's are created any time there is common area that needs to be maintained by the association. Since most cities require developers to put in common areas (open space, storm water retention ponds, landscaping, etc.) most subdivisions less than 20 yeasr old will have HOA's.
HOA's are actually a good thing if they are not overly restrictive. Would you want to buy a $250,000 home and let your neighbor pull in a used mobile home on their lot or raise pigs in their front yard while they take six months to change the engine of their car in their driveway? If you really want it that open, Boise County (Boise City is actually Ada County) has some great communities for you.
I had one client that read the HOA agreement and CCR's for Pier Pointe Subdivision in Boise and said "I thought you said this was Pier Pointe, after reading their documents, I think it is really Peer Pressure Subdivision." ;-)
We have a subdivision ordinance in place (varies by city) so even a simple lot split is now considered a "subdivision".
My advice is to cautiously accept CCR's and HOA's. If the cost is only $120 - $200 a year, is that really going to stop you from buying the home of your dreams? If you rent, you still have to obey the HOA and CCR's so that isn't the answer.
Also, make sure you ask what the fees go to. My subdivision does not have CCR's or a HOA but we don't get pressurized irrigation services. If we did, I could save the HOA fees in just my water bill alone over city water rates!
Thanks. I understand that not everyone shares my mortal loathing of HOAs. I am unable to bear the prospect of what I've seen from them in the past, and if that means taking the risk that someone may lower my property value by the way they live, that's a chance I just have to take. I could not have any quality of life under an HOA given my basic personality, and this I recognize, so the smart thing to do--for them and for me--is simply avoid them. I need to live somewhere that I don't fundamentally feel antipathy, and I feel it's my duty to know that about myself and make good decisions.
I just pulled all active single family listings in Ada County. There are 1248 active listings and 352 of those are listed with no HOA dues. There really isn't a field in the MLS that says whether or not a home has an HOA but I've never encountered an active HOA that doesn't collect dues so I think that's a pretty good representation of what's out there. There are a couple of small infill developments in Boise with 3-5 homes that don't have HOAs. Most newer stuff for sale that is outside an HOA has been infill in Boise--new homes in older neighborhoods.
Excellent info. Much appreciated, and seems to confirm what I reckoned. We'd want to buy something built outside of major new construction waves anyway.
I begin to wonder if there is a bank/credit union in Boise that doesn't sell loans upstream. I realize they all reserve the right, but I found one here that has never done so in its history. I asked the banker what he thought the odds were that they'd start, and he said basically that anything legally permissible was possible, but the day they did, they would be jettisoning 100 years or so of what they felt made them unique, so it wasn't real likely. That was good enough for me.
Isn't it interesting that MLS doesn't have a field to indicate whether the property is burdened by an HOA corporation? Why do you think that is? Even if one attempts to infer that there is no HOA corporation from the lack of any amount indicated in assessments, such an inference is a false one.
HOAs really don't have any positive selling points. Ever increasing assessments and perpetual liens that can never be paid off? Mostly you see scare tactics such as: "Would you want to buy a $250,000 home and let your neighbor pull in a used mobile home on their lot or raise pigs in their front yard while they take six months to change the engine of their car in their driveway?" Really? What else do you expect to "not let" your neighbor do on the neighbor's property? Now that you purchased "your" HOA-burdened property let's suppose your "neighbor" doesn't like a particular model or make of car, a style of house, secondary buildings, etc. (plenty of examples of HOA litigation over all of these) Did you buy your property with the expectation of meeting the personal whims of your "neighbor" or the objectives of your own family? Do you expect to have to pay an HOA corporation (or its management company) a fee to permit you to make an improvement on your property? Do you expect to have to ask for permission from a private organization as to whether you can put an improvement on or even repair your property?
When you try to sell, do you think you should have to pay "transfer fees", "resale certificate", "estoppel certificate", "certificate of compliance", "community enhancement", and other fees to the management company or the HOA corporation? Do you want to have the sale of your property held up by windfall-seeking management companies?
Don't make the mistake of purchasing HOA-burdened property. Not only will you have perpetual liens that can never be paid off, your house will be security for debts racked up by the HOA corporation, you will be at risk of being pulled into the litigation vortex that is inevitable with HOAs, there are many other liabilities that stem from the legal entanglement that are not visible when looking at the physical house.
Last edited by IC_deLight; 01-25-2013 at 01:22 PM..
IC-deLight, you make some good points. I wonder how much this sort of conflict with HOAs varies from state to state and region to region. In our area, I think most HOAs are pretty responsible and solvent. I've been selling real estate for 10 years and I've yet to run into a horror story personally. I hope I'm not tempting fate saying that!! Still, you and j_k_k make a point, too, that not everything is for everyone and some people just aren't going to fit in an HOA. I don't think there's any sort of conspiracy out there with our MLS not having that as a field--they ask what the fees are, what the set-up fees are and the frequency of dues so that the upfront costs of HOAs and ongoing costs are really clear to consumers. Nothing is hidden--just not a simple yes/no field that we search.
As for the credit union question, no, I'm not aware of a credit union or even local bank that holds their mortgages anymore. However, many local banks do broker loans for Idaho Housing and Finance (IHFA) and IHFA does keep all of their loans permanently. They have their headquarters downtown in Boise and you can go make a payment to them in person. They offer FHA and conventional loans and have many great programs. You might work with a loan officer from a local bank or mortgage company on your loan and then they immediately sell to IHFA where it stays permanently. They are great--love to work with them.
Several credit unions do offer mortgages, but every one I've worked with turns around and sells them. I just closed one this morning with Idaho Central Credit Union that was immediately sold to IHFA. Maybe someone else on the forum will have some ideas about this.
As for pigs being raised in the front yard and junk cars on a property, everyone has to follow city code, whether or not there is an HOA, so neither of those things would be allowed anywhere in Boise, Meridian, or other surrounding towns. You'd have to live outside of city limits to get into pig farming. And yes, Boise county could be a good place for that.
IC-deLight, you make some good points. I wonder how much this sort of conflict with HOAs varies from state to state and region to region. In our area, I think most HOAs are pretty responsible and solvent. I've been selling real estate for 10 years and I've yet to run into a horror story personally. I hope I'm not tempting fate saying that!! Still, you and j_k_k make a point, too, that not everything is for everyone and some people just aren't going to fit in an HOA. I don't think there's any sort of conspiracy out there with our MLS not having that as a field--they ask what the fees are, what the set-up fees are and the frequency of dues so that the upfront costs of HOAs and ongoing costs are really clear to consumers. Nothing is hidden--just not a simple yes/no field that we search.
Yet, it seems MLS has a field for everything that is important except perhaps the most important issue of all. You can search by city, county, zip code, year built, price, subdivision, school district, number of bathrooms, number of stories, acreage, existence of garage, number of parking spots in a garage, square footage of house, type of heating, whether there is AC, the list goes on. However, it would seem that MLS and its subscribers would prefer that prospective purchasers not be able to filter out or even distinguish properties based upon whether the property is burdened by an HOA corporation. Inevitably in this area of the country the claim by real estate agents is "that would eliminate a lot of possibilities". But so does any other constraint and isn't that the purpose since you are only looking for one home? I think it much more likely that this was done on purpose to make it difficult if not impossible to eliminate HOA-burdened property from searches.
Quote:
As for pigs being raised in the front yard and junk cars on a property, everyone has to follow city code, whether or not there is an HOA, so neither of those things would be allowed anywhere in Boise, Meridian, or other surrounding towns. You'd have to live outside of city limits to get into pig farming. And yes, Boise county could be a good place for that.
The pigs and junk cars propaganda are attempts to sell HOA-burdened property with fear, not on the actual merits of the HOA-burdened property.
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HOA & CCR's in Boise
Still, you and j_k_k make a point, too, that not everything is for everyone and some people just aren't going to fit in an HOA. I don't think there's any sort of conspiracy out there with our MLS not having that as a field--they ask what the fees are, what the set-up fees are and the frequency of dues so that the upfront costs of HOAs and ongoing costs are really clear to consumers. Nothing is hidden--just not a simple yes/no field that we search.
