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Old 08-18-2015, 06:30 PM
 
695 posts, read 685,814 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
One man's "social progress" is another man's social decay.

There is significant peril in attempting to link "intellectualism" with a particular sociopolitical viewpoint set. And it would be a mistake to assume that intellect is the driving force behind today's socially "progressive" thought. Fact is that it is much easier to make a case for the opposite. So I get stuck very quickly as a result of what seems to be your premise.
Beautifully said!

 
Old 08-19-2015, 06:42 AM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
21,143 posts, read 14,205,065 times
Reputation: 15660
You won't find an argument from me, Vandal. I agree with everything you and Sage have mentioned.

The massive 'look at me' culture shift is certainly as pervasive here as it is everywhere, and it has changed the way we all behave to some degree. Even those who refused to join the digital revolution ended up being drafted into it with the development of the cell phone.

I was the last person I know to get one, and I only bought it for using on road trips. Since I've only been on one trip where I needed it last year, the minutes have now expired and I've already forgotten how to use all the doo-dads.

I still feel very little need for one, but if someone would have said to me, back in 1995, that I would be spending about an hour a day on a computer, writing to people I have never met, and forming relationships with many of them that are as close as if they lived close by in many cases, I would have thought that person to be crazy. I'm sure part of the reason why I don't use a cell phone is because communication like this one we're having is essentially a one-way street. I can say what I want without someone over-talking me, and if I don't want to engage, or if I don't want some kind of validation to my thoughts, I can just turn this gizmo off and go play the banjo or something.

The crazy thing is we are all part of millions who are doing exactly the same stuff we are doing. It is ultimately strange to me that people prefer to write on their cell phones over speaking to each other. For exactly the same reasons why I still prefer the computer.

Do we all know too much about each other? How much do we really want to know? Those are big societal questions, and Idaho is no exception at all to this phenomenon. The only difference is the degree of withdrawal symptoms to this addiction I see here, out in the wilds, where coverage cannot be found. It still amuses me to watch tired dirty people, come out of the wilderness, occupying a stool at a country bar/store/café, doing nothing but drinking beer and texting on cell phones instead of just going back home and talking to their families after they arrive.

And that's not only newcomer city folks doing it. Old cowboys are doing it just as much as younger people. They like to take selfies at a bar just as much as the kids do.

It's also puzzling as to why so many people who are essentially leading isolated lives, nesting alone at home and isolated at work, think what they need is more isolation to feel happy. These people are in constant superficial contact with everyone they know, but seem to have very little substance in their relationships in a deeper, wider way. That they think they can somehow find substance and more depth being further away physically is a very contradictory thing that's nonsensical.

I can understanding moving here for all the common valid reasons; cheap housing and living costs, a better job, a more fulfilling job, or a yen to experience a 4 season climate. Even looking out on a landscape that's still more nature than civilization is also something I understand.

It's hard for me to understand why so many folks move here and only duplicate the lives they led elsewhere. Those who come with some specific intent in mind- like you, Sage, or like f5, who moved specifically because he spends almost all of his time out camping in the wilds, seem to be minorities these days.

My dad used to say "A change is as good as a rest." I never agreed with that, but he may have been right, at least in the minds of many who are looking to move here. Maybe doing the same things in a new place is enough for them, even if not for me. Since I'm not King Of The World, they are free to come for whatever reasons they want.
 
Old 08-19-2015, 09:37 AM
 
742 posts, read 829,407 times
Reputation: 533
Well written and said.

People want to have their cake and eat it too. If I were being honest, that's probably why I live in Boise - I get the best of both worlds (city culture, opportunity, and close enough to Idaho's wilderness). So it's hard to begrudge other people for wanting that, especially those in the smaller, far-flung towns of Idaho. They want to be able to live far away from the maddening crowds and all the bustle and crowding, but at the same time, if you asked them, they'd also like excellent cell phone coverage, satellite TV, high speed internet, advanced medical care, quality schools, quick delivery from Ebay and Amazon, etc. Just without the crowds and expense, of course.

If you want to see real change, just wait another 10 years or so when the technology has improved such that quality high speed internet and cell phone coverage is available everywhere, and telecommuting will make it possible for people to live anywhere they want and still work and get paid as if they were living in Los Angeles or San Francisco. We're already seeing this more and more in Boise - people are making California wages living in Boise, Idaho. Think that will impact cost of living and the wage gap any?
 
Old 08-19-2015, 01:02 PM
 
1,282 posts, read 3,336,411 times
Reputation: 708
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
You won't find an argument from me, Vandal. I agree with everything you and Sage have mentioned.

The massive 'look at me' culture shift is certainly as pervasive here as it is everywhere, and it has changed the way we all behave to some degree. Even those who refused to join the digital revolution ended up being drafted into it with the development of the cell phone.

I was the last person I know to get one, and I only bought it for using on road trips. Since I've only been on one trip where I needed it last year, the minutes have now expired and I've already forgotten how to use all the doo-dads.

I still feel very little need for one, but if someone would have said to me, back in 1995, that I would be spending about an hour a day on a computer, writing to people I have never met, and forming relationships with many of them that are as close as if they lived close by in many cases, I would have thought that person to be crazy. I'm sure part of the reason why I don't use a cell phone is because communication like this one we're having is essentially a one-way street. I can say what I want without someone over-talking me, and if I don't want to engage, or if I don't want some kind of validation to my thoughts, I can just turn this gizmo off and go play the banjo or something.

The crazy thing is we are all part of millions who are doing exactly the same stuff we are doing. It is ultimately strange to me that people prefer to write on their cell phones over speaking to each other. For exactly the same reasons why I still prefer the computer.

Do we all know too much about each other? How much do we really want to know? Those are big societal questions, and Idaho is no exception at all to this phenomenon. The only difference is the degree of withdrawal symptoms to this addiction I see here, out in the wilds, where coverage cannot be found. It still amuses me to watch tired dirty people, come out of the wilderness, occupying a stool at a country bar/store/café, doing nothing but drinking beer and texting on cell phones instead of just going back home and talking to their families after they arrive.

And that's not only newcomer city folks doing it. Old cowboys are doing it just as much as younger people. They like to take selfies at a bar just as much as the kids do.

It's also puzzling as to why so many people who are essentially leading isolated lives, nesting alone at home and isolated at work, think what they need is more isolation to feel happy. These people are in constant superficial contact with everyone they know, but seem to have very little substance in their relationships in a deeper, wider way. That they think they can somehow find substance and more depth being further away physically is a very contradictory thing that's nonsensical.

I can understanding moving here for all the common valid reasons; cheap housing and living costs, a better job, a more fulfilling job, or a yen to experience a 4 season climate. Even looking out on a landscape that's still more nature than civilization is also something I understand.

It's hard for me to understand why so many folks move here and only duplicate the lives they led elsewhere. Those who come with some specific intent in mind- like you, Sage, or like f5, who moved specifically because he spends almost all of his time out camping in the wilds, seem to be minorities these days.

My dad used to say "A change is as good as a rest." I never agreed with that, but he may have been right, at least in the minds of many who are looking to move here. Maybe doing the same things in a new place is enough for them, even if not for me. Since I'm not King Of The World, they are free to come for whatever reasons they want.
I think there are generally two groups of people: those who are moving *toward* something and those who are moving *away* from something. In the latter case, the old adage that "no matter where you go, there you are" seems to apply. I see this a lot in my current city -- it seems to attract what I would call "lost souls": folks who are wandering aimlessly from place to place because they think changing their external environment will somehow atone for some internal deficit. In other cases, folks are attempting to escape environmental, rather than internal, pressures (smog, traffic, congestion etc.), but what often happens is that they drag their existing baggage along with them to their new location, and history repeats.

The former group, on the other hand, represents those who are proactively looking to move toward some goal, and are doing so with a sense of intentionality and self-awareness, not looking to make their new location conform to their demands, but rather to adapt to their new environment and become a part of it. Where I live, people from NYC or Miami or some other big city move here to the mountains and then complain about the lack of this or that. Others adapt to their new environment and peacefully coexist, embracing the positive changes and accepting the others as a necessary trade off.

All that being said, I do think there is value in changing your environment, as long as you do so from the right perspective. A bona fide increase in quality of life can result from moving to a new place, and we humans are inherently equipped to be around others who are like us.

There was a study I saw recently that suggested that as we get older, we become more discriminating about who we befriend -- our social circles become smaller and it becomes more about quality than quantity; social interaction for its own sake becomes less important. That might be viewed as intentional isolation, to some extent, but I would put myself in that camp. The problem, of course, is that the older one gets, the harder it becomes to find one's tribe . . . or so it seems to me.
 
Old 08-19-2015, 01:10 PM
 
1,282 posts, read 3,336,411 times
Reputation: 708
Quote:
Originally Posted by VandalsLOL View Post
Well written and said.

If you want to see real change, just wait another 10 years or so when the technology has improved such that quality high speed internet and cell phone coverage is available everywhere, and telecommuting will make it possible for people to live anywhere they want and still work and get paid as if they were living in Los Angeles or San Francisco. We're already seeing this more and more in Boise - people are making California wages living in Boise, Idaho. Think that will impact cost of living and the wage gap any?
Yes, but by the same token, it will also impact the cost of living and wage gaps at the locations from which these people move, making silicon valley, for example, more affordable. But honestly, I think the telecommuting trend will have a limited impact; only a certain portion of jobs can be done remotely, and even now you're seeing companies (like Yahoo, for example) react negatively to the whole trend by requiring people to work on site. There are a number of *disadvantages* that go along with telecommuting as well, many of which prohibit people from seizing that opportunity, even when it is available to them. Besides, cost of living is only one consideration when choosing a place to live -- I wouldn't want to live in Detroit or Buffalo, for example, despite the cheap cost of housing. Places like Boulder and Austin and San Francisco, on the other hand, will continue to be very expensive places to live because . . . well, they are awesome places to live. Could Boise become the next Boulder? Maybe. Some would embrace that; others, not as much.
 
Old 08-19-2015, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
21,143 posts, read 14,205,065 times
Reputation: 15660
Quote:
Originally Posted by NC_Paddler View Post
I think there are generally two groups of people: those who are moving *toward* something and those who are moving *away* from something. In the latter case, the old adage that "no matter where you go, there you are" seems to apply. I see this a lot in my current city -- it seems to attract what I would call "lost souls": folks who are wandering aimlessly from place to place because they think changing their external environment will somehow atone for some internal deficit. In other cases, folks are attempting to escape environmental, rather than internal, pressures (smog, traffic, congestion etc.), but what often happens is that they drag their existing baggage along with them to their new location, and history repeats.

The former group, on the other hand, represents those who are proactively looking to move toward some goal, and are doing so with a sense of intentionality and self-awareness, not looking to make their new location conform to their demands, but rather to adapt to their new environment and become a part of it. Where I live, people from NYC or Miami or some other big city move here to the mountains and then complain about the lack of this or that. Others adapt to their new environment and peacefully coexist, embracing the positive changes and accepting the others as a necessary trade off.

All that being said, I do think there is value in changing your environment, as long as you do so from the right perspective. A bona fide increase in quality of life can result from moving to a new place, and we humans are inherently equipped to be around others who are like us.

There was a study I saw recently that suggested that as we get older, we become more discriminating about who we befriend -- our social circles become smaller and it becomes more about quality than quantity; social interaction for its own sake becomes less important. That might be viewed as intentional isolation, to some extent, but I would put myself in that camp. The problem, of course, is that the older one gets, the harder it becomes to find one's tribe . . . or so it seems to me.
Your last comment is particularly interesting to me.
I've always been a member of some tribes, just because of my upbringing, the skills I've developed, and my major interests. A good part of it also has to do with the size of my home state's population as well; I think it's easier here than in other places to find members of a tribe, because people know other people, and the word about someone gets passed around in a wider circle than the one in someone's home town.

One of the longest and largest tribes I belong to the brotherhood of the banjo. Guitar players are in the millions, while banjoists are in the thousands. It's a very peculiar instrument that has its own unique playing styles, songs and sensibilities, and while many folks try it out, very few succeed and stick with it. The banjo is not friendly. it seems to select its players like no other instrument, and once chosen, the players speak of it more in terms of addiction than avocation. That is certainly true with me; once I picked my first one up for the very first time, I was hooked. That was 53 years ago, and I'm still playing almost daily.

Most often, someone who is a dedicated player is the only banjoist around, especially in smaller towns. As a result of all this, we all love to meet other players and play with them. Other instruments and their players like to do the same, of course, but they have a much easier time of it. I always take a banjo whenever I travel, and it has opened more doors than I can count, all over the country. The other thing is we all usually remember each other, even if its been many years since we last met.

There are other interests and vocations that are like this… it seems the less common an interest is, the more eager those who have it are willing to share with others who have it.

I think we are all in the beginnings of a social revolution that will change humanity as much as the industrial revolution did. I also think that as the new wears off all our gadgetry, we will return to the ancient ways we've always done in human association.

But some things will never be repeated. In the 1860s, a gold camp called Warren's Diggins sprung up close to Florence, a larger gold camp due east of Burgdorph, in the heart of Idaho's wilderness. Warren's Diggins is now called Warren. A few people still live there.
The winters were so snowy no one could work the mines, so the miners were very idle. They made their own entertainment as best they could.
One, a miner named Beemer, who could write music proficiently, wrote 124 songs arranged for the camp's musicians; a flute, 2 fiddles, a banjo and an accordion. Some of the songs were published and well known. Others were picked up from men who came and went, drifting, while others were composed by Beemer, based on half-remembered songs or parts of songs the miners sang.

Beemer sought out songs from any miner who could hum, sing, or whistle them, and the musician-miners spent all winter learning, practicing, and then playing the songs in dances that would last for days in the town saloon.

Apparently, the orchestra stayed in the camp for several years, as the music became more complex and harder to play as time went along. They all had a lot of time to practice, so they all got better, and wanted more challenges.

No drinking was allowed during the dances, and the few ladies in town taught any miner who wanted to learn the female moves to the quadrilles and other line dances they played. The men would take turns dancing the male and female parts, and the camp loved the dances more than drinking and gambling.
They all did drink and gamble, but never when the dances happened, and all the nude paintings in the saloon were turned around, faces to the wall.

This was during the Civil War, when feelings were high in the gold camps. Nearby Florence was the most dangerous town in the territory to live in, according to the Territorial Governor, but Warren's Diggins was listed as being remarkably peaceful, with none of the stabbings, shootings, and theft of Florence.

Two friends of mine, both fiddlers, found the only existing manuscript of Beemer's music. The pages were hand lined into staffs and Beemer hand bound them all together with needle and thread, using an old canvas mail bag for the covers. Apparently, many of the songs had words, and the miners would often sing, but only the music notation survived.

I don't think we will ever see that kind of community again, but to me, it shows how close a community can be. Very few of the citizens knew each other at first, but they all became friends, even though half at least were Southern. That old camp burned down the the ground in 1904, and the manuscript is the only artifact that still exists intact.
 
Old 08-19-2015, 10:13 PM
 
Location: .N6 A4
3,467 posts, read 4,342,468 times
Reputation: 2802
Quote:
Originally Posted by TohobitPeak View Post
Chill meaning relaxed and comfortable.
For the record, I know what it means! What seems to often go along with that is slack, non-confrontational to a fault, and other down sides.

If cleanliness is next to godliness, relaxed and comfortable is probably next to boring, in my mind anyway.

Sorry, I really don't belong west of the Susquehanna.
 
Old 08-19-2015, 11:00 PM
 
33 posts, read 108,742 times
Reputation: 23
When you're trying to find commonalities with the middle child of 13 while she's just lost her 7th, and you know it's world overshoot day, when you just paid off your SUV, but a redneck drunk totals it, and the insurance agent/neighbor lies about the model year to give the 12k repair business to your other neighbor who maliciously dumps trash on your lot line, don't worry. That's just the smell of cow pie. And btw normal people, from outside the fishing hole, don't deserve friends-intellectual, or from another planet of self-entitled superior beings.

Last edited by black Jack; 08-19-2015 at 11:38 PM..
 
Old 08-20-2015, 07:11 AM
 
1,152 posts, read 2,598,876 times
Reputation: 1692
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApartmentNomad View Post
For the record, I know what it means! What seems to often go along with that is slack, non-confrontational to a fault, and other down sides.

If cleanliness is next to godliness, relaxed and comfortable is probably next to boring, in my mind anyway.

Sorry, I really don't belong west of the Susquehanna.
I believe you are assuming too much. You are showing interest in Boise by posting in this thread right? Are you looking to escape ABQ? I would if I had to live there. Take a break and visit for a time and check the city out and decide if the energy here fits into what you desire. In this valley you can be north or south of the Boise.
 
Old 08-20-2015, 08:50 AM
 
742 posts, read 829,407 times
Reputation: 533
NC Paddler...

If you kayak (as based on your screen name), there is probably no finer city to be in than Boise. Just saying.
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