Book Club Discussion on "Thousand Splendid Suns" - Khaled Hosseini

[RDSLOTS]

Originally Posted by gemthornton

. . . but I feel that Mariam's death was in many ways her noblest hour. I felt a victory for her to die with dignity for Rasheed's death. He certainly didn't allow her any while he lived - she gained it with his death and her sentence. What she sacrificed for the love of Laila and the children was probably the happiest gift she had ever given. I must allow her that.

I agree wholeheartedly, gem, and you know, loved Mariam all the more for her sacrifice. I have just been a bit sorry, though, that she never knew all of the ramifications of her sacrifice. I like to think there is a plaque on the orphanage walls, erected to Mariam's memory.


How grateful I am for the lives we, as women, lead here in the US. I suppose I was shocked that the Muslim women living here, with their daughters attending the HS, weren't aware of the opportunities an education afforded women like their own girls, if they'd take advantage of it. Perhaps, even though the women came to the school without the company of men, they were either afraid of reprisals if they said anything other than it 'being their way' or whatever. And perhaps the young girls were too afraid to say anything to the contrary, but they didn't seem to dread their lot. I remember the elder actually smiling and being excited about returning to Iran to be married, even if to a 40-year-old man. I am sure she was a mother within the year. Equally interesting to me was that men did not marry until their 30s and 40s, when they had made their living and could afford to take on a wife, so to speak.

It would be great to do a discussion of Hosseini's The Kite Runner, wouldn't it? I have asked myself, of the two, which is my favorite -- to which I can only say, I loved them both. Hosseini's writing is beautiful, his storytelling an art. I love his images of Afghanistan, and the weaving-in of the language and culture and customs, in the heart-rending stories he shares.

I am also very grateful for pictures of Afghanistan as Hosseini knew it, and hopes for again, to replace the many images on the evening news, and in newspapers and magazines.

[gemkeeper]

I feel the same way that you do about Mariam, Rdslots. I do think that she knew the ramifications of her sacrifice.

Not on the same level that we understand them, but, she knew that for the first time in her life she was a "giver", a savior, someone loved for all that she could give. What else did she have to offer those that she loved so dearly but her life? Different worlds we share, but the same hearts and same desires - to give our all to those we love.

(I am responding as if we were talking about an actual person. But, I think to both of us, and to many others, she is and was a real person - perhaps, a collective one, but real nonetheless!)

I would not be surprised to learn that the Moslem women and girls that you had contact through school were completely satisfied with their education and the girls' upcoming marriages.

When I mentioned our friend's daughter, Suman, I never would have thought that she would live a life like her parents did in India. Suman's mother met her own husband the day before their marriage. She was 18 yrs. old, he was already a practicing OB/Gyn doctor educated in the UK and US.

She was disappointed that her parents chose a man with a darker complection than she had wanted. That was her only concern about their arranged marriage.

All three of their children were born in the US, were stellar students and earned advanced degrees. Still, each one of them wanted their parents to find them an Indian mate. And, so it was!

I would imagine that it was the same expectation of your students and their mothers. They were not acting out of fear of the men in their lives, but out of the centuries old traditions of their culture.

Lives are lost, homes are destroyed, love is denied all in the name of many of the cultures and religions that give breath to their adherants.

I would be at a complete loss to decide which of Hosseini's two books I liked the most. They are both so special to me now. It is like being asked which of your two children you love the most. Impossible. (Sophie's Choice - another possibility!)

[lolagranola]

How grateful I am for the lives we, as women, lead here in the US. I suppose I was shocked that the Muslim women living here, with their daughters attending the HS, weren't aware of the opportunities an education afforded women like their own girls, if they'd take advantage of it. Perhaps, even though the women came to the school without the company of men, they were either afraid of reprisals if they said anything other than it 'being their way' or whatever. And perhaps the young girls were too afraid to say anything to the contrary, but they didn't seem to dread their lot.

This made me a bit teary. We ARE so lucky, to be born in the US, and to be born in the 20th century. I think it is soooo easy for us to forget that there are millions of people who live under oppression of one kind or another, or without any hope/opportunity to improve their lot.

A few years ago, my momo came to visit me and she took the train. There was a group of Mexicans (?)(illeagals?) who got off before her. One of them left a pamphlet, which she picked up and read, well the best she could because it was in Spanish. The pamphlet was a notification to farm workers that they were entitled to certain things: clean water for drinking SEPERATE from clean water for washing; no more than 12 or 14 consectutive hours of work with inclusions for meal breaks; children under x years could not work more than x hours; that they were FREE to leave the working premises off hours.

Now, what ever you think of migrant/foreign/illegal workers...it was shocking to us to realize that these entitlements were not something to take for granted. Especially the water thing.

What I am getting at, is women/girls who are here in the US and still live like Mariam and Laila did, may NOT know that they have a choice. They could be our neighbor and be living totally removed from our reality. For me, it is hard to believe that is real, right here!

[RDSLOTS]

I agree, Lolagranola, and that is what makes me sad, and frustrated. On one hand, I don't want to over-step anything or appear to be rude, and insist people like these two young Muslim women do anything OUR way, and to do anything else is wrong. But I do always hope they, at least, know what they are either ignorant of, or choosing not to do. And like I said earlier, the elder girl seemed more excited about the imminent return to Iran, her marriage, achieving that status of becoming a woman. How quickly, too, they are forced to grow up. Even here, I often see (in the malls) very young-looking women, with a child or children, in the company of much older men, one of whom I just assume must be the husband?

There is a wonderful short selection, from a longer autobiography, I used to read with my students -- a young Mexican child coming to the West Coast of the US, and his observations. He comments, as best I can recall, about the different lunches he sees people eating, aboard the train, the fact they can purchase a lunch, and then later, the colors and designs on the US flag. The child compares it to his in Mexico.

The excitement the little fellow exhibits over the new place, where his father has a good, paying, job, but where his life will be very different, is almost contagious. I used to enjoy getting the students to discuss what going someplace new like this would be like for them, and what it would mean 'getting' vs. giving-up.

One day, my little one came home from school very much against Mexicans in our country, and I was shocked, but looked at it as a wonderful time to try to teach her 'understanding and acceptance' of others. I gave her the assignment of reading a TIME that had just come to the house, discussing the plight of the illegal, uneducated Mexicans in the US. The magazine did a great job of looking at the situation from all sorts of angles, and at the dinner table, or in the car on the way home from school, I would ask some pointed questions. At the end I asked her if she could imagine giving up a life you knew for whatever you perceived would be better? We talked about stereotypes too.

Unfortunately, I think some Americans think in terms of stereotypes, and some of it I blame on the media too. How wonderful to get this very, very different glimpse into some of the good of Afghanistan like Hosseini offers us.

I can't wait to see what he writes about next. If you haven't read The Kite Runner, and you liked this work, I'd really encourage you to pick it up.

(Or have you, Lola? I need to browse the book forum again.)

[gemkeeper]

One of the freedoms that we, as Americans, often take very lightly, is the freedom to worship as we please. This is a privilege that millions throughout the world do not possess. I feel so fortunate to be able to worship as my conscience dictates, especially since my religous organization is one of the most criticized in the world.

I can relate to those who practice Islam and live according to the customs of that religion in US. Afterall, one's religion should not be just a Sunday outing, but define us and be a way of life.

There are so many immigrants to this country that assimilate very cautiously into American society. To a Moslem family the American way of life must seem quite disrespectful and sinful.

That these young girls and women cling to the tenets of Islam, even while exposed to American culture, is simply what they expect of themselves. It is a matter of honor and obedience. It would be naive of us to think that the girls in high school do not hear and see what the aspirations, hopes and dreams of their fellow American classmates have. Kids of all cultures are generally very gregarious, talkative, and curious about one another's lives.

I would that these young ladies that Rdslots has taught know exactly what options would be available and encouraged if they were not Moslem. I, also, realize just how strong religious faith and conscience can be and that it can dictate the entire course of our lives.

It is sad that these Islamic women are held back, in our estimation, from reaching their full potential. If they sought that freedom and longed to advance their careers I would wholeheartedly support them. If they choose, happily and not under duress, to follow the traditions of their faith, then I have to support that, as well.

Likewise it is unconscionable that we take advantage of legal and illegal immigrants and then complain that they are here in the US. This is a different situation entirely. In their case, they are purposely pursuing the American ideals, unlike many Moslems. They are treated as lowly as the Moslem women that we have read about -and they are living in our country - a country of freedoms. Hispanic immigrants in the US often are given the same lack of respect and recognition of the women of Afghanistan. They may not face honor killings, but they certainly are often forced to live as servants and pictured as a US problem.

All Islamic women of the world, all immigrants, all classes, all faiths deserve the same respect, honor, and freedom as any other human being does in any country of the world. In our humble way, all we can do is to offer our individual support by doing as you did, Rdslots, by encouraging education and rising above suppression and by lending our voices to all of those others that disavow this injustice.

We are so privileged to have the freedom to even submit an opinion such as the ones we have without the fear of any harm or retribution being visited upon us. There are far too many people who are just as intelligent as we are, just as talented as any of us, and most of all, just as deserving. Some are endulled, others suppressed and neither fate on any individual's own merit, but solely based on where they were born and their parents' heritage .

[gemkeeper]

Please excuse my spelling errors in the last post. I just popped on my glasses, looked at the last sentence and asked myself "What does endulled mean?"

I meant "indulged", but had a major senior moment and no glasses!

Yes, ontheroad, it's me with a new moniker! Thanks for the comment.

[lolagranola]

It is sad that these Islamic women are held back, in our estimation, from reaching their full potential. If they sought that freedom and longed to advance their careers I would wholeheartedly support them. If they choose, happily and not under duress, to follow the traditions of their faith, then I have to support that, as well.

So easily we take this point of view... We wish they could see that all the potential is available to them as well as "Americans". We are afraid that they are resigning themselves to a future not unlike the women of 1000. We forget that they may find that preferable to the secularism we have here... We shouldn't assume that life will be better for them "our way", but knowing that we can't help worrying for them anyway.

And like the Mexican discussion RDSLOTS, I wonder if reading makes one more "liberal" (okay, I hate the term, and don't consider myself "liberal" but according to what politics have defined I suppose I am), tolerant/empathetic?? Anyone else think that? Because we see the experience "1st hand" of how people came to be in X situation?

[little_thirsty]

We moved to San Antonio last year and my eyes have been opened so much as to what people do in wanting to live in this country and why. I also think that reading about other cultures helps put some empathy back because you get invested in the characters. I feel like Miriam and Laila could have been my family members. You hurt for them and want the best for them.

[gemkeeper]

Originally Posted by lolagranola

So easily we take this point of view... We wish they could see that all the potential is available to them as well as "Americans". We are afraid that they are resigning themselves to a future not unlike the women of 1000. We forget that they may find that preferable to the secularism we have here... We shouldn't assume that life will be better for them "our way", but knowing that we can't help worrying for them anyway.

And like the Mexican discussion RDSLOTS, I wonder if reading makes one more "liberal" (okay, I hate the term, and don't consider myself "liberal" but according to what politics have defined I suppose I am), tolerant/empathetic?? Anyone else think that? Because we see the experience "1st hand" of how people came to be in X situation?

That is exactly the point that I want to take away from this book and keep forever, lolagranola. We are all familiar with the expression "Live, and let live.", and we use it so glibly.

But, this is an expression that the world would do well to internalize. We are not all the same. We do not all have the same beliefs. We do not all have the same ethnic imprint that determines how we live.

Many preach tolerance - and, this may be a form of the "liberalism" that you refer to, lolagranola - but, few actually live a life that practices tolerance. Certainly the extremist Moslems do not. I hope we are not guilty of a different intolerance, but just as damaging.

Originally Posted by little_thirsty

We moved to San Antonio last year and my eyes have been opened so much as to what people do in wanting to live in this country and why. I also think that reading about other cultures helps put some empathy back because you get invested in the characters. I feel like Miriam and Laila could have been my family members. You hurt for them and want the best for them.

My son and his family live in El Paso, little_thirsty, and my daughter-in-law was born and raised in Mexico City. Her parents just became citizens of the US last summer and it was a day of celebration for all. I hate the way my daughter-in-law is looked at when they come to visit us. She pretends that she doesn't see, but she does; I do.

We, as Americans in today's society, have a strange attitude toward immigrants from other countries, particularly third world or fringe countries.

We are all immigrants. We have all imposed our presence on the Native American Indians, yet few would feel that we don't have the right to be here. There is an arrogance about accepting an immigrant teacher and his family from Denmark, but throwing an eye of suspicion and prejudice at the immigration of a doctor and his family from Hondorus. This is very troubling to me.

A Thousand Splendid Suns just reinforces the presence of these prejudices that we witness. Women are denigrated, hazzeras are looked down upon, tribes from a region outside of their own are hated. This was a very eye-opening and thoughtful book. I am waiting for more from Hosseini with great anticipation.

[RDSLOTS]

Well, Gem, I'll overlook your spelling if you'll kindly overlook my grammar, and syntax. Computers hate my style of writing. I think we all know that sometimes we are so caught-up in the excitement of the discourse here, until we make mistakes. English teacher or not, I assure you I am not grading you.


Your points are great ones. I too am dismayed by what I see as prejudice, subtle or not, and a lack of general understanding of anyone different from ourselves. Years ago, when I was expecting my child, I had a long discussion -- many of them -- with my husband on how I wanted to raise this person to be open, and fair, minded. No prejudice, intolerance of others for whatever reason. . . and I worked hard at it.

When she was just five, and had only begun Kindergarten, she jumped in the front seat one afternoon after school and announced she didn't like boys. "Oh, really?" I recall smiling, and asking, "how come?"

"Boys are mean."

I repeated her statement, but asked, "All boys?" Then I gave her examples of boys she considered her friends. She explained she didn't like 'mean boys,' and so I took that argument to task. I'll admit there was a small piece of me that was enjoying making her squirm, but I wanted her to see what she was saying with these 'blanket statements.'

Throughout her childhood, I took her to task on things like that, so when she was a young teen and said she didn't like Mexicans, I was truly surprised she'd say such a thing in my presence (but glad, too, that she had so we could discuss it). Her argument was that Mexican men leered at women.

"Is that so? Only Mexican men leer at women?" I pointed out to her that with the way a lot of teens dressed these days, I caught myself 'leering' at them.

Anyway, I am very proud of her. She has grown into a fine young woman, who is not only tolerant of others, but displays great empathy, and even defends many who are put-down, stereotyped, humiliated, whatever.

I think we have to approach such things one individual at a time.